SPOILER ALERT: Lore Discussion

Grim Dawn General Discussion
1842

Ok I’ll give you that. Having gone through the campaign several times, its easy to gloss over story when you’re just zipping to the finish line. I’d even toss in Korinia and Nicoh Erin under notable NPCs.

Having gone through Kymon’s questline after going through FG first, I’m amused at the fact that Archon Barthomew actually chastises Kymon for being a traitor if you send Sister Girra to Sorrow’s Bastion. Makes me wonder if a Empyrion’s religion went through a similar purge to Korvaak’s. Someone of Empyrion’s stature should have more existing followers instead of having to be “rediscovered” by Kymon. Take Menhir for instance, he seems like another absentee god in the lore and yet he had plenty of followers in the old Erulan Empire.

Another thing I noticed is that Kymon regretted burning down the town where he discovered Korvaak since there may be knowledge there on how to seal back the god. Yet we now know that it was the Witch Gods that originally sealed Korvaak. Was this monologue due to a lack of knowledge on Kymon’s part on how history went? When I reread the note just now, I felt a certain dissonance with how it doesn’t fit with the lore. I had to remind myself that these lore notes were out 3 years before Forgotten Gods was released.

1843

Korvaak “the forgotten god” was forgotten and no one knew him anymore. The Witch Gods made sure of that. However Kymon uncovered something believing it was Empyrion and by that making a connection. That gave Korvaak a way back by getting stronger with each added follower.

Korvaak was able to let the messenger get into play. The only thing that bothered me is why the messenger and not Ulzaad. I know Ulzaad became disillusioned, lost and eventually driven to madness and despair. Maybe a lost cause or may require to much power.

I don’t think Kymon would be able to stop Korvaak anymore if he wanted to. The messenger would just pick someone else to lead the choosen.

1844

I saw this post of yours from March 2016! This totally clears up the issue I had of how Kymon discovered Korvaak. I can’t believe the answer was in a Misadventure from 3 years ago.

Gotta give props to Crate for this though I wish this was more transparent in-game. :+1:

1845

From the lore note:

Kymon's Journal - Page 2

There are questions that have been scratching at the back of my mind. I have tried to push them aside but with each conversation I have with the Messenger they become harder to ignore.

I must ask: when the last demon is driven from this world, what will become of us then? In my heart, I fear I already know the answer, but dare not speak it out loud. I have no doubt that I have made the right choice. The power I have revived will be humanity’s salvation from the blood fiends of the Chthonic Void.

However, there must always be evil. And when there is no evil left to conquer who or, more frighteningly, what will fill that emptiness? Will we become as reviled as those who we oppose? The Primordial powers have no care or sympathy for humanity. Without shackles, this power I have borrowed could be just as disastrous as, or perhaps even worse than, Ch’thon.

I now wish I had not burned the town where I awoke this ancient being. If it ever needs to be stopped I may have destroyed the last remaining knowledge to unmake it.

Father Kymon

1846

that girl name is Alice, you can find her mother in a cellar after you beat the three bosses at Port Valbury. She said she will go to Malmouth to find her daughter. Later you can find her body and a note near Krieg boss at Fleshwork.

1847

Picked this up from Friday’s stream:

"Grava: I wonder what Riggs’ real name is. I feel that Riggs isn’t his real name.

Zantai: That would be your head cannon. You were the one who created the character.

Grava: Yeah, I don’t know. Pretty sure his real name isn’t Riggs though."
:thinking:

1848

Hmm interesting, i missed that part.

I wonder, he is standing in Dreeg’s camp. If you talk to him before choosing to side with one of the Witch Gods:

Seems the Emissary has left you with a bit of a choice to make, friend.

Which will it be?

Bysmiel and her web of spies, Dreeg with his fancy visions, or maybe Solael with the ritual sacrifice?

That last one sounds like a winner to me.

Maybe he is just being sarcastic or someone from the Solael faction. However having owning a lot of favors from people sounds something like someone working for Bysmiel.

And than there’s the Forgotten Gods background featuring Riggs.

1849

Riggs is probably not a real name. and rhymes with ‘rig’, as in rigging the game. a very gambly character. gonna wait for new updates before his backstory is cleared up though. also… since riggs is the loading screen for FG, then why is byscilla nonexistent in the AoM, even though she’s the loading screen of AoM? i guess its to promote the necromancer class… since bysmiel’s gears are mostly related to occultist & necro.

btw, about the korvan elegy lore notes, i’ve read and ponder about it for a time, and it gives the true sense of ending for the forgotten gods xpac imo. this is my short analysis of its relation the fall of korvan empire:

korvan elegy is a 4-part hidden lore notes in the tomb of the forgotten gods. the notes tell some background story of the 3 witch gods, and their plan to chain korvaak and gaining his power for their ambition. an ambition that leds to their ascension as demigods… and to control the fate of humankind according to their will, so that mankind won’t become fodder or mindless slave whether to korvaak in his mad quest for revenge against the void, the fallen aetherials, or the void followers of chthon. this is a tragic story, because in this catastrophic event that ruins the korvan empire forever, these things happened:

-most of the korvan people become victims to unnatural disaster that happens when the 3 witch battle korvaak (earthquakes, volcanoes and magmas erupting everywhere, lakes & rivers boiling up into lava, nightmares and madness plaguing the mind of korvan citizens). the unnatural disasters happened because the land of korvaan empire and worshippers of korvaak’s state of wellbeing is binded to korvaak’s flesh (which is very risky, if something really bad happens to korvaak).

-ulzuin, the right hand of korvaak, got seduced and tricked by bysmiel into wandering far away from korvan lands. when he realized her betrayal and arrived too late to save the korvan empire, he calls his father empyrion (the greatest god in grim dawn world) for help. yet empyrion gives no answer at all. ulzuin falls into a maddened rage (because he can’t believe some mortals managed to trick him so good and because he realized empyrion has vanished). and in his moment of insanity, he wrought destruction upon the very land and people he was supposed to protect. this is the betrayal of ulzuin (which is a very disappointing display according to lokarr, the bastard demi-god that host questionable loot parties all the time in his crucible)

-in the 2nd part of the korvan elegy, dreeg (one of the 3 witch gods which is blessed with all knowing gaze into threads of fate) himself stated that korvaak is mad, and he thinks (with some reluctance) the ambitious sorcerer solael would be a good replacement for korvaak as the leader of mankind’s destiny. because solael can be reasoned with (even if solael has heart so black and drowned in darkness), and because korvaak is mad (dreeg knows korvaak is going to use mankind as a fodder or mindless slave in his war against the void at some point in the future). dreeg saw no other option for humanity’s survival in the future, except the path of taking korvaak’s power for the 3 witches themselves and sealing korvaak away from mankind’s memory. and so in the 4rth part of the korvan elegy, dreeg help solael and bysmiel to enter korvaak’s throne room. and so korvaak was binded in imprisonment. the 3 witch gods claimed the eldritch throne and its power for their own ends. thus humanity was led in secret by the 3 witch gods since that point… at the cost of the korvan civilization and most of its citizen as collateral damage. a grim and heavy decision to secure mankind’s future… a tragic story… an elegy for the korvan people…

this makes me personally decide that as evil as the 3 witch gods is in their modus operandi, they are lawful evil at best… which is better than korvaak’s chaotic evil nature at this point in current state of grim dawn’s storyline. sooo… the 3 witch gods are currently the true master of mankind. with the black legion in 2nd place behind them. if the storyline’s gonna advance, the 3 witch cults must be included in it aside from our primary team of black legion and malmouthers.

1850

Well Bysmiel has done some things to delay the aetherials. There is a used Eldritch sigil left of Steelcap district if I am correct. That would explain her presence in the AoM screen.

About Dreeg he doesn’t think that Korvaak is mad, but Korvaak is the one that holds the leash is wounded, broken. Dreeg want’s his one path.

I don’t think the blavk Legion is 2nd in place. There are still gods, ascendants present.

1851

then the AoM loading screen should’ve displayed that Eldritch sigil instead of Bysmiecilla. aside from that, one of the lore notes from sagon states that byscilla’s web should be strong enough to support black legion in holding the aetherials and chthonians at bay until the 3 can beat korvaak once more. kinda makes me think that bysmiel had a very significant influence in directing the political states of the entire planet for a long time.

yeah… dreeg saw korvaak accidentally while korvaak is in “compromised” position… so he’s punished by korvaak (a punishment that both tortures dreeg and also makes dreeg a super powerful oracle. kinda skubby decision there for korvaak.) also, dreeg is very ambitious too… a trait that makes him pursue the secrets of gazing beyond the eldritch veil…

so dreeg wants the power from the eldricth throne, while simultaneously replacing korvaak with the trio since dreeg probably thinks korvaak is too weak and too deep in his personal revenge quest to defend humanity from chthonians and other deadly threats. kinda reasonable excuse to usurp korvaak i think. though it also cause the catastrophic collateral damage upon korvan people and lands. so its a grim 50-50 decision.

oh yeah, upon defeating korvaak in throne of the 3, korvaak says “you have no idea what’s coming down”… then a disembodied voice (most likely dreeg… or uroboruuk???) says “balance is restored” or “regrettable. but the balance must be maintained”. what is “regrettable” here? i got the idea what maintaining balance is (restoring the eldritch throne control to the 3). but this regrettable thing has unclear context.

what i mean there is the ‘known’ forces that still supports the ‘good humanity factions’. mogdrogen is mostly only concerned with the rhowari and his wild territories. ulgrim who is most likely and ascendant is in black legion camp. i can’t think of any other ‘known’ gods and ascendants that is in leagues with the protagonist factions (black legion, the outcast, ugdenbog coven, malmouth resistance, homestead, devil’s crossing, rhowari, kymon’s chosen/death’s vigil, the 3 witch god cults).
if empyrion, menhir, or other unknown gods/ascendants does support the protagonist factions, it will probably be revealed in GD2.

1852

Actually Dreeg peered though the veil and got punished for it century’s before the war of the god’s. Or at least before Korvaak was weakened due it.

1853

huh… thx for clearing that up. i often got confused at that part.
that means dreeg has a lot of time to ruminate the strands of fate then.
does that mean dreeg is always loyal to korvaak all that time? or does he already has the ambitious plan to usurp korvaak all that time before korvaak went mad after his defeat against the chthonians?

sorry if its kinda mouthful, but i really want to know the reason dreeg want to usurp korvaak. is it because of his ambition? or is it because of his desire to maintain balance? (as in balancing the fate of mankind and cairn) or is it both of them? is dreeg a neutral or evil figure? (solael & bysmiel are clearly evil though). because all of the 3 witch gods does risk falling into villain territory (especially solael, since his black eldritch flame has significant CHAOS influence in it). they might become our enemies in gd2.

1854

Well Dreeg saw a chance when Korvaak was severely weakened. He looked at diferent possibilities and outcomes.

Before that was he loyal? He wouldn’t stand a chance against a primeodial god. So he just had to obey.

Well i gues Dreeg didn’t want to be a some god’s mercy and want to be able to control it himself. By balance i believe it’s the balance of power.

1855

that’s + argument toward dreeg being more ambitious rather than neutral balanced…

also, i’ve reread the part 2 of korvan elegy. at the end of the elegy, dreeg says that he’ll cut other threads of fate, since he’s seen no favorable outcome, other than his path - the path of dreeg (heavily implies that he’s ambitious and selfish), that means usurping korvaak’s throne.

btw he also mentions of seeing solael being capable leader or something to replace korvaak. and then solael become the one that propose the 3 witch cults’ covenant, implying solael’s the leader of the 3. kinda implies that solael’s gonna do something really bad in future content. i’m still thinking that solael’s eldritch fire connection to chaos means the void’s going to make a move against the 3 in the future.

1856

I’ve just noticed some nice details when korvaak is defeated. after beating him, a dreeg sigil appears under him. then his left arms got binded by bluish bysmiel magic, followed by his right arms also binded by reddish solael magic, then finally he vanishes (quite an interesting coincidence there, since dreeg is the oldest of the trio, bysmiel the middle one, and solael as the youngest.) And lastly, the Throne of The Three shatters after korvaak vanishes, with Dreeg ominously saying “balance is restored” or “regrettable, but the balance must be maintained”.

the 3 throne shattering makes me theorize that the 3 have to sacrifice their eldritch throne to banish korvaak back into the celestial tapestry. Dreeg’s phrase ‘regrettable’ support this theory, since the 3 siphon off korvaak’s power while he’s imprisoned to empower the 3’s godlike abilities.

Dreeg must have regretted sacrificing the thrones/banishing korvaak, since that implies the 3 is WEAKER now, compared to the state before korvaak’s scheme in fg events, what with korvaak being gone, they have no celestial being to leech powers from. like parasites that lost their host. but dreeg believes this is the best option, since having a stable but weaker domain is preferable rather than having a strong domain with significant disruptive elements in it (imagine a tyrant regretting massacring rebels because its a wasted manpower potential, even though it will stabilize the tyrant’s domain from threat within).

that means the 3 will have to seek other means to recover their eldritch domain’s strength in order to face off the good old chthonian & aetherial threats. also, the 3 cult leaders went into hiding after we defeat korvaak. its possible the 3 return their vessel and rendezvous in the eldritch realm in secret to consolidate their weakened hold in their eldritch domain, so their vessel can’t stay in the physical realm after korvaak’s defeat. remember that in one of dreeg’s faction augments, its stated that the augment is obtained from slain void creatures that bypass the barrier to the eldritch realm. so its possible that the 3’s eldritch domain are constantly being invaded by chthonians.

this is all just a theory though. maybe crate’s next content updates will change all that stuff.

1857

No i think it’s the other way around, that the three Witch Gods are now more powerful. Just look at Mogdrogen’s reaction after beating Korvaak.

A great disturbance has shaken the cosmos, a shifting of power…what have you done?

You would mean to tell me that you felled a god?

No…not you…I see the truth now.

You were merely used to consolidate their power. The cowards…

You truly do not know?
You’ve become a piece in a game that spans the very stars, of beings incomprehensible to your mortal mind.

But now the balance has shifted, the rules will have to change.

Now they don’t need to contain Korvaak anymore and have the full potential of the Eldritch Realm.

1858

that new quotes from mog changes everything. i didn’t realize mog has new dialogues. so this means the 3 has ascended even more, because korvaak was banished completely from the eldritch realm. this could mean that the will be potential enemies in the future, since their punishment to the witches in altar of rattosh indicates that they don’t want any competition following their steps.

then again, the lore note ‘vision of terror’ shows that dreeg is aware of yugol’s threat besides the chthonians… so the would be more likely to stay allied to us to face yugol and chthon.

i still don’t understand that phrase ‘regrettably’ from dreeg though. maybe we should wait for content updates to have clearer picture.

1859

Guys, I just completed FG today. Bought it since launch but got too engrossed playing Monster Hunter World. Finally got down to power through the entire game and collected all the lore notes.

I messed up at the very end though, I wanted to ask the Emissary where Byscilla went, but I clicked the first dialogue option about what he planned to do next first. Then I could not find a way to trigger that dialogue to ask Byscilla’s whereabouts again. Do you know what his response would be?

I kept reading about the 3 cult leaders potentially being the Witch Gods themselves, Byscilla’s appearance (green eyes, raven black hair) matching the description in the lore note kinda support this as well.

EDIT: Never mind… I found a way to extract the game file for dialogues. Turned out he just said something like “I dunnno”… that was underwhelming lol

1860

Have you seen Byscilla?

Hm, I'm afraid not.

I presume she had to do something on behalf of Bysmiel herself.

1861

Haha thanks man, just went and extracted the game file myself to discover this. I guess we only have to wait to find out more.

So far the story of the game makes me feel like I’m a super powerful being dancing on the palms of the gods themselves. Now that I know our character can beat up Korvaak, I hope there will be chances for me to kick some other divine butts for their constant manipulations.