Super Build, 3min 30s Slaughtered Avatar of Mogdrogen Ver.1006

Grim Dawn Classes, Skills and Builds
21

There is something that feels terribly, terribly wrong to me to respond to this build instantly with a nerf. There is a side of me that agrees that it is op, but something feels terribly wrong with development priorities!

How many level 85 (the absolute level cap) build ideas (what percentile) can beat ultimate Mogroden in a reasonable time, say 20 minutes (which is excruciatingly long and requires a masochistic player, but he is a god after all), let alone 3 minutes?

What percentile of level 85 build ideas can solo 150 waves of gladiator without even considering bonus timers and scores?

If the answer is incredibly, incredibly low, then the game is offering content so difficult to beat that only a few can do it while many will find it hopeless without restarting all over again with a whole new character. This is not a game where you want this to happen! Itā€™s a build-oriented game where difficulties follow a linear progression (theyā€™re not chosen, theyā€™re the next step in the content after clearing a former difficulty ā€“ ultimate is different content from veteran, and not merely a way to escalate challenge) so having only the smallest fraction of the user base with very, very precise outlier builds able to beat the most difficult content is really just putting a giant spotlight on the gameā€™s design/balancing failures to make enough builds viable for its content.

Thatā€™s the reason why seeing this immediately as a highlight for nerfing seems seriously messed up to me from a priority standpoint. If anything, I think more builds need to be buffed so that a wide range of reasonable build choices from players who really understand the mechanics and donā€™t choose anything clearly sub-optimal for that build can beat the gameā€™s content. Certainly someone who makes sub-optimal novice choices for a build shouldnā€™t be able to beat a god or withstand the most difficult arena possible, player skill should be rewarded, but many of the people who make optimal and smart, well-studied choices for a build and invest a lot of time to power it up shouldnā€™t face an impassable brick wall.

The first and foremost balancing question should be against the gameā€™s content. Are there enough builds that can clear it, or are there too few? If too few, that doesnā€™t seem like the right time to get all tweaky and dial things down a little bit with nerfs among the few builds that can clear the content.

After a wide enough range of builds can simply beat ultimate Mogroden in a reasonable time and a wide enough range of builds can simply survive 150 waves of gladiator, maybe then is it time to consider nerfing if someone is having too easy of a time doing it.

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22

Perhaps a bit of an over-reaction. Zantai already made it clear enough in his post how he views it.

Their approach seems level-headed enough to me and he isnā€™t out to crush your builds.

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23

Just as a clarification Iā€™m not interested in my builds. Iā€™m not even looking at this like a player and donā€™t even have interest in pet builds so much.

My worry is just from a designer perspective in keeping the game feeling like thereā€™s a wide variety of builds that can clear its content. Itā€™s the key I see to keeping this game fresh and popular for years to come, especially beyond the most devoted fans, and I like the game too much to see it grow stale. Having too few builds that can do this or that means thereā€™s too little effective variety of choices. A game can seem to have infinite variety of build/design choices but one that quickly makes it apparent that too few can succeed (easily or not) is the one that can most quickly feel exhausted.

Thatā€™s the whole point of balance when considering fun factor which should be the ultimate goal. Healthy balance means thereā€™s a wide range of ways to succeed that people continue to explore and explore.

Iā€™d love to see it being played again and again in the following decades as with Diablo 2, and my reaction is a bit knee-jerk but only because I donā€™t think there are a wide range of ways to beat ultimate Mogroden in a reasonable time or solo 150 waves of gladiator. The viable options to do that seem extremely limited, and some of them already seem scheduled for a nerf.

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24

When I said ā€œyour buildsā€ it was more a generalization directed at, well anyone, not just you specifically :wink:

Guess it just depends on your personality and what you like. Iā€™ve been playing for the past 3 years (single-player) and am clocked at around 6300 hrs (been playing mostly offline lately so I think Iā€™m technically nudging closer to 7k).

For me it has more than enough staying power and if you observe the forum and note the ā€œregularsā€ who interact in many of the posts, probably a good indication theyā€™ve been playing (and likely still are) quite a bit as well.

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25

Admittedly so, Iā€™m very biased and often guilty of repeatedly comparing GD to Diablo 2 since a lot of its appeal to me is from the standpoint of seeing it as the closest thing to a modern successor.

For me it has more than enough staying power and if you observe the forum and note the ā€œregularsā€ who interact in many of the posts, probably a good indication theyā€™ve been playing (and likely still are) quite a bit as well.

That part I agree and my attempt at critiques wouldnā€™t be applicable if I didnā€™t see and enjoy the same staying power.

For example I complain a lot about the gameā€™s item design and loot because thereā€™s something I hate, which is the amount of inapplicable loot collected for a particular build (to the extent that I feel like, even among over 20 characters Iā€™ve created, half the stuff I collect isnā€™t useful to a single one of them).

But that complaint has a side that maybe I should focus on more, which is nothing but compliments. The reason the game has this problem is because it allows a very, very diverse range of builds. The irrelevant loot problem is the problem of having items too narrow in purpose matched with the maximum diversity of character builds (excluding gear choices). It becomes apparent each time a ranged demolitionist collects a 2-handed crossbow only to find it deals poison and gives skill bonuses to occultist and nightblade, e.g. This is a problem Diablo 2 never suffered to anywhere near the same extent because it allowed limited build choices with generalized loot that applies to many builds, making even a poison crossbow useful to any bow amazon and sometimes even to other classes, e.g. Itā€™s part of the reason there were players still farming 10 years later as I see it. They werenā€™t collecting irrelevant stuff that would require creating new character after character after character to find any use.

Yet that maximum diversity of character builds is one of the reasons that has me creating my 26th character and taking it all the way to ultimate and beyond and repeating the same damned quests over and over while trying to improve run speed to reduce monotony. Itā€™s addictive as hell, and the game has no problems there to me. There itā€™s one of the places that deviates from Diablo 2 in a way that outshines it in my opinion, it just kind of leaves some loot/item/farming issues behind.

So thereā€™s a tremendous amount of staying power, Iā€™d agree. My interest is just maximizing it ā€“ from balancing to gear thoughts to making it take much longer to reach level cap, they all relate to the desire to maximize and extend staying power as much as possible.

Nerfing on its own doesnā€™t bother me that much. I just pretend the game is still in beta and weā€™re still testers, that the game hasnā€™t reached a really stable release just yet. No problemo, thatā€™s kind of interesting with a ā€œcontribute to the growing development of this unfinished gameā€ vibe. Itā€™s mainly nerfing combined with no seemingly clear attempt to make a wider range of builds viable to reasonably clear the hardest content (ultimate Mogroden and now 150 waves of gladiator solo) that bugs me. Itā€™s the coupling of these two that gives me a knee-jerk reaction that something isnā€™t being steered in the right direction, that I could wait 2 months from now and perhaps still perceive the same gross imbalance problem. Imbalance to me is at its grossest when thereā€™s too few builds that can even survive/clear content in any sane fashion. Itā€™s not as bad when enough builds can clear the content and a few can just do it a bit more efficiently.

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26

i think i get misunderstood, 8 mins is already decent timer, but for me OP timer is 4-5 mins.

Harder is the challenge, the less build can compete here and this is a natural things, speaking about diablo 2, take uber tristram for exemple, not that many build perform well here if you ask me.

27

Agreed, but Uber Tristram was a newer idea to Diablo 2 and post-expansion. There were things in D2 post-expansion that I felt werenā€™t quite right, like the introduction of sets. But sets are another thing for me (Iā€™m personally not a fan). Some of the newer ideas in Diablo 2 post-expansion were starting to approach some aspects of what I find unappealing in Grim Dawn to an uncomfortable degree like suddenly starting to feel like stash space was too limited (but not anywhere close to the extent of GD).

On Uber Tristram, the key thing about Diablo 2 that we cannot ignore that makes it incomparable to GD is that virtually no one reached the level cap. It took ages to get a single level up from level 90 onwards, and still an incredible grind from level 80s.

As a result even if your build struggled in Uber Tristram, chances are your character wasnā€™t level 99, not even close. You had something to work towards at least to improve your odds. Maybe other builds could have an easier time than yours at lower levels or without as much great gear (without grinding as much, effectively) because they were stronger and D2 was far from perfectly balanced, but you still had the option to level up for ages and ages to make your build better and better. Your character build was far from exhausted and as powerful as it could be, so to speak, and there was an incentive to keep going and going with that build until you could overcome those toughest hurdles the game threw your way. As long as there was that sense that every reasonable build had a fighting chance to overcome Uber Tristram, that was far, far more balanced than GD in its current state. A game where some builds merely seem to require less grinding (less experience levels, less ultra-rare gear) to beat content than others is nowhere near as imbalanced as one that makes it clear that a lot of builds will never clear content no matter how much they grind.

If Diablo 2ā€™s level cap took one week for me to reach (letā€™s say level 65 to compare to 85 in GD where leveling up is generally faster), Iā€™d say Uber Tristram is a very bad idea to introduce as it would only highlight OP builds for developers to consider nerfing while making it crystal clear to a lot of players that their build will never clear that content as is.

Thatā€™s where the game had so much incentive to keep going with an existing character as I see it which I feel is far more lacking in this one (though this one gives tremendous incentive to create a boatload of characters, but that too is lost if only few become too obvious as being effective enough to clear content).

In this one it takes even me (not a great player) a measly week to get to level 85. And I could be wrong but Iā€™d say for a lot of perfectly sane builds, even if you equip them with BiS gear, theyā€™re not going to be clearing Mogroden in 20 minutes let alone 3, and not many are even going to be able to survive 150 waves of gladiator. At that point the build is hopeless at clearing the content. It doesnā€™t even have a glimmer of hope, it canā€™t level up any further, it canā€™t find better gear that will turn things around if itā€™s already equipped with BiS or close which took ages to acquire.

28

Now itā€™s getting really scary. 4-5 mins to clear out wave 140-150? really? even within my circle of gamers who are relatively good players, 4-5mins is just beyond reach. if we even the time out to 10 waves, that means 30s is required to clear one wave.

with the help of simple math, we can conclude impossible- mission.

29

Actually Witchblade can do it, in my book this is the strongest character in crucible.

i posted a video in jajajaā€™s witchblade tread few days ago, here the link:

wave 141 starting at 15.02 - 19.40 = 4mins38 clear, take into consideration this is not the best run, just a random one.

30

Interestingly interestingā€¦any BDs you are aware of could take down all the monsters within 5 mins for Gladiator waves 140-150? Not one I have seen through the forum here, nor any one around me that I have known, could you please post any one of them so that I could try to follow?

31

Itā€™s just you man. You seem to have a need/desire to beat ā€œeverythingā€. This boss is designed in such a way that you have to really work towards achieving his demise. But itā€™s not a prerequisite for completing the game. Itā€™s added in for the elite players who want that ā€œextraā€ challenge. For this reason alone I feel itā€™s justified.

All of my builds can clear the current content. None of them can beat Ultimate Mogdrogen. But Iā€™m not one of those players who cares either. I like the fact that he exists. Future Duck King may want to push one of his builds to take down the ā€œlightning Godā€, but right now, every time I finish a build I canā€™t wait to start a new one. Sometimes I get ideas whilst levelling and have 2-3 builds going at a time.

Iā€™m actually glad the devs themselves monitor these boards. Primal Instinct did need to be looked at.

32

LOL!280,000 damage with one hand ,according to orange critical strike to the BOSS him at least had 3300OA.Common strike had 40,000-50,000 damage,only one hand!He is God or you being fooled.

33

Yeah i think with cruci buff and some proc i reach 3200-3300 OA

34

YOU can copy that BUILD,try it!Then tell me he didn`t Cheating.

35

Well, I 've tried to kill Avatar of Modrogen with this build and it is not so easy as the vid shows. Most of the times the mobs he spawns kill me.

36

eh, i feel insulted right now.

37

I would agree if it was for elite players. Do you think there is someone elite enough to solo gladiator with an arbitrary build, like a trickster? To make it fair letā€™s say the trickster is allowed to grind for months and reach the highest experience level possible in the game (I know that doesnā€™t take months, one of my points) if he wants to prepare his build for the challenge.

If it felt skill-based instead of build-based then itā€™s not a balance issue, itā€™s a skill issue and a game that rewards skill for its most difficult content is great. You could always just say no build is overpowered, the player is just awesome, and no build is underpowered, the player just sucks. Such a game would never need to nerf or buff anything, and Iā€™d rest my case ā€“ my point is moot if balancing is never an issue and the game never nerfed or buffed anything.

I love hardcore games like that where you have to be damned good to win, and Iā€™d say you shouldnā€™t be able to beat Doom 2 on nightmare difficulty if you canā€™t circle strafe and shoot like a god with the highest mouse sensitivity while aiming like a sniper in a fraction of a second. Thatā€™s perfectly fine in a game where balancing is not the issue, only player skill. The developers can ramp up the difficulty all they like to insane levels in a context where enough skill can win, where the players donā€™t face an impossible barrier. I think youā€™re confusing me with someone who doesnā€™t have the most hardcore mindset about challenge and skill. For most games Iā€™d complain that theyā€™re too easy, but those are games that donā€™t involve balancing, just skill.

If clearing ultimate Mogdrogen or surviving 150 waves of gladiator was merely a matter of skill and the build was practically irrelevant, then thatā€™s awesome! I donā€™t mind if only 5 people in the world ever beat it legitimately. But hopefully you and I can both agree that the build is far, far, far from irrelevant here and trumps even player skill in this game.

My only point is that you shouldnā€™t be reaching to nerf the few builds in a game where balance is of relevance while the majority of builds (not players) cannot even beat the content. Itā€™s that simple. You canā€™t ask for nerfs and buffs if you think skill is the only factor here.

I do think balance is an issue in this game, and I offer the perspective that balancing is more important to consider against the gameā€™s content, not from one build to the next. A game feels fairly balanced to me if every reasonable build has a fighting chance to clear all of its content (even the most difficult edge cases the game offers). Itā€™s imbalanced if thereā€™s content that highlights that certain builds are clearly inferior or superior to others with a massive spotlight. Itā€™s a lower priority to balance builds against each other than to balance builds against content. From nerf responses I get the impression that the priorities are reversed.

This is not about my ability to beat the Mogdrogen in a reasonable time or solo gladiator (though I do have that personal goal). Iā€™m not an elite player and know Iā€™m not. Itā€™s more about just making sure the game is balanced against its content so that the game isnā€™t skewed and highlights that just a few outlier builds can beat certain content. The reason thatā€™s important is that RPGs are already starting to gradually work towards life support at the moment that happens until itā€™s rectified.

38

Have. Heā€™s not cheating. To be honest, now that I think about it, he can easily hit way higher. 330k should be possible.

Witchblades are boring builds for a reason.

39

Build is just there,everybody can try it.Our team is copying right now.

40

heā€™s not cheating

itā€™s easy to reach 3300 OA with crucible buffs and some proc in

jajajaā€™s witchblade build is really the best build for crucible in my opinion

YOU can copy that BUILD,try it! Then you will find he didnā€™t Cheating.