[The Crucible] Perceived shift in difficulty - especially Crowd Control against players

[Superfluff]

I don’t have anything concrete but I have noticed that everything has seemed to feel more unresponsive, especially movement skills. Far too often I use my movement rune (whether it’s a charge or a blink)

This does happen. Mostly vs large clusters of mobs, or big targets in general And on chars that need it it can be pretty bad. Maybe it has to do with the reduced travel distance from last patch, idk

[thejabrixone]

Far too often I use my movement rune (whether it’s a charge or a blink) and it goes on cooldown and I don’t move anywhere.

Maybe it’s a bug, maybe it’s intended.
The same can happen if you press movement skill while holding spamming skill button.
Your movement skill will just stop and interrupted then your char will continue the spamming skill.

This happen with forcewave + blitz and I can see it can happen in other similar situation also.

[banana_peel]

it goes on cooldown and I don’t move anywhere

I notice it too and take it as a part of CC effect mutation. Rushes and blinks get interrupted by enemy skills much more often than before.

If my char isn’t extra tanky, i always fight Aleks under the arc. Because otherwise i know i can die to his meteor and nothing will save me. This patch i died to his meteor after my rush being interrupted far too many times.

[Valinov]

I don’t have anything concrete but I have noticed that everything has seemed to feel more unresponsive, especially movement skills. Far too often I use my movement rune (whether it’s a charge or a blink)

This does happen. Mostly vs large clusters of mobs, or big targets in general And on chars that need it it can be pretty bad. Maybe it has to do with the reduced travel distance from last patch, idk

This behavior most often happens when I have a filler ability on my left mouse.

[Zantai]

Time goes by, the game community accumulate numbers, so is endgame community. Ideas accumulate too. Together people find more optimal solutions. Do you deny this natural phenomenon happening in every field of expertise?

Experts at the game have come and gone before you guys ever came around to stake your claim as the defacto “leaders” of the meta. The narrative is always the same though: the self-proclaimed experts think they know better than the devs and they know better than every player that disagrees with them.

Are you better than the experts that came before you? Maybe, but I doubt the difference is a 50% decrease in clear times. It’s almost as if there are other factors at play.

First thing comes to mind to exemplify this: the majority of optimised builds based on the best Legendary sets were able to facetank 151-170 100% of the time.

I don’t consider 100% facetanking the hardest content in the game to be the standard of balance. I’m shocked players that care about skill would think otherwise, but perhaps you think the real skill comes in assembling the item combinations. While there is a talent in that, it should not be enough to completely erase the necessity for skill of play, or at the least not also allow for incredible clear times.

Another example is how often i hear from different players that their builds are not playble anymore. “I decided to dust of my X build from 1.1.4 but i died 3 times out of 3, lol”. It happens every patch - people have to remake most of their builds because they don’t pass the Crucible test anymore. Now, of course, it’s only a builder’s fault they made a glass-cannon designed to meet a certain minimal requirement to survive. But if the build is not viable after the new patch, what does that mean? Degradation of skill? Or maybe the Crucible did become harder (even if unintentionally)?

I have no doubt that builds have to make adjustments from patch to patch to achieve similar results to before. An ARPG is a complicated beast with many moving parts and changes reverberate across the entire ecosystem.

It becomes a problem only when it is not possible to clear the content anymore on a build because of our changes, and I am more than willing to admit mistakes whenever that happens and perfectly willing to make changes if constructive feedback is provided.

However, I don’t consider a build going from 5 minute Crucible runs to 6, or even approaching 7 for that matter, to be in need of fixing. It’s you guys that decide such builds are “dead”.

This condescending tone again

I’ve got “people” telling me to buy our DLC so I can play it.

Telling the dev that designed, tested and balanced the Crucible that they need to play their game so they can understand how it works is the very definition of arrogance.

If you expect anything but a “condescending” tone in the face of that, you’re in the wrong forum.

I could have issued any number of bans over the months/years for repeatedly stirring drama on the forum, insulting people for not playing on the same level and generally inhibiting the health of the build section because some players dare post things they find “fun” instead of effective at the meta you guys cherish.

But I’m the one getting accused of moderation bias. Lol. Think hard about what the real bias is and be mindful of that bias running out of patience.

[Zantai]

What’s this about monster CC feeling longer or something? Was a mechanic changed that I missed in patch notes? Or is this just anecdotal?

No changes to CC behavior. Some vanilla enemies getting a bump a few patches ago to match the threat level of expansion enemies is likely the largest contributor to the opinion going around.

I have not a slightest clue. Game engine is so old and wonky and there are some bugs that have become a part of the game and devs can’t fix them (like physical damage/armor bug) and there are some mechanics that devs can’t explain so it’s possible.

The interaction between armor and physical damage works exactly as it was coded to work, thus it is not a bug. There was simply no point in ripping out an entire system and rewriting it when the game was balanced around this behavior.

I’m not sure what mechanics we can’t explain. Except that vendor in Port Valbury duplicating, there must be a portal to hell at those world coordinates.

Aggro issues are also infuriating but everyone is well aware of that. I don’t really see much point in writing more with all the condescension in this thread.

With some detailed information provided by a Praetorian recently, we were able to pinpoint the cause of monsters choosing to remain in the spawn areas of the Crucible and have addressed two separate bugs for v1.1.7.0. I have not observed the issue anymore, or I would if I ever played the Crucible I guess.

I play the game constantly for years and I have not noticed anything with the movement runes. But what I have noticed is that in some patches there are more CTD’s than in others and in this one I have them practically every day at least once. 1.1.5.x was extremely stable.

In most cases, CTDs can be addressed on the user end with driver/software updates, verifying game files, checking Antivirus software. That said, code changes happen virtually every patch, so it’s not out of the question that obscure issues that only affect certain system configurations can be introduced.

[Valinov]

Also on the topic, as I have said in private, there have been zero database changes in regards to cc duration or resist calculation. I’ve played more crucible in the last month than the previous 2 or 3 combined and I have not experienced anything out of the ordinary when it comes to cc. The only noticable thing I’ve found is the above mentioned weird actions of movement abilities at times.

[banana_peel]

Experts at the game have come and gone before you guys ever came around to stake your claim as the defacto “leaders” of the meta. The narrative is always the same though: the self-proclaimed experts think they know better than the devs and they know better than every player that disagrees with them.

Are you better than the experts that came before you? Maybe, but I doubt the difference is a 50% decrease in clear times. It’s almost as if there are other factors at play.

Experts come and go but they leave legacy which the successors use to their advantage. That’s how the whole civilization works. What makes you think GD escapes this principle?
Builds of today are more optimised than they were before. Even than they were 6 months ago. It’s natural and has nothing to do with some being better than the others.

I don’t know if i’m, or anyone of current players, is “better”. Can’t say for other people, but i don’t proclaim anything either. I’m just a guy who plays this game a lot and has analytical approach to everything he does. I give feedback, you decide how to take it, end of story.

I’m shocked players that care about skill would think otherwise

What makes you say that in the first place? If you ask me, i’m glad the challenge involves player skill. But that was not what i was talking about. I just remember that things were easier, it’s as simple as that: many builds could facetank Crucible, no they cannot. Isn’t that an indicator Crucible got harder?

However, I don’t consider a build going from 5 minute Crucible runs to 6, or even approaching 7 for that matter, to be in need of fixing.

But that is not the case for the majority of the builds. As you said, this game is very complicated so are builds in it. When you nerf the dmg of a given build, you can’t be confident it will just become slower. It is very likely the build will fall apart because high dmg was the main thing holding it together, allowing it to mitigate the most dangerous fights by killing the most dangeruos enemies fast enough. Consequently, the build has to created from the ground up. Usually it is possible. But it’s very tiring.

If you expect anything but a “condescending” tone in the face of that, you’re in the wrong forum.

I could have issued any number of bans over the months/years for repeatedly stirring drama on the forum, insulting people for not playing on the same level and generally inhibiting the health of the build section because some players dare post things they find “fun” instead of effective at the meta you guys cherish.

I’m not sure who are you talking to. I’m not “you guys”, i’m a separate person, buyer of this game, and i want to be treated as such. When i see things like “Class over” in a general response from a dev, like everyone who disagrees with them is some naughty kid needs to be schooled, i feel the right to speak up.

I’ve made two beginner’s guides and a few meme builds and i won’t ever insult anyone who doesn’t care for optimization. So

Think hard about what the real bias is and be mindful of that bias running out of patience.

no, i wont think hard and i won’t be mindful of anything. I consider the relationship between the devs and the active community as mutually beneficial. If you decide to “run out of patience” on someone and end it, that’s your call.

[mad_lee]

The interaction between armor and physical damage works exactly as it was coded to work, thus it is not a bug. There was simply no point in ripping out an entire system and rewriting it when the game was balanced around this behavior.

Yeah, but it makes one-handed and dual wielding physical builds less than desirable. Add to that huge incosistency of Cadence damage that leads to incosistency in adtch (the major thing in survival of melee) and you have what you have: s&b and dw melee physical being behind pretty much everything. By the way, extra target helped but just a tiny bit. Physical Cadence could still use a bit of an overhaul.

I’m not sure what mechanics we can’t explain.

I have asked it many times, but for example WPS and Cadence interaction when s&b, dw and 2h? Why do Soldier wps are designed in a way that one is only working with 2h and other one with dw/1h? How does racial damage apply to spells from main-hand component/augment? Why does melee Fire-Strike has such difficulties with adtch despite big weapon damage tool-tip in second tab (I suspect that Static Strike and Brimstone are not taking into account when adtch is calculated)? There are some more questions that are still not answered, but those that I could remember of of the top of my head.

[Superfluff]

Why does melee Fire-Strike

low %WD…

Flat not calculated. This was established in vanilla

[Maya]

The interaction between armor and physical damage works exactly as it was coded to work, thus it is not a bug. There was simply no point in ripping out an entire system and rewriting it when the game was balanced around this behavior.

Are Pets balanced around this too?
Because I don’t think anyone had been able to make a physical pet build comparable in strength to other damage types. And I very much assume that the armor & phys dmg interaction is the core of the problem.

[Superfluff]

armor shredding birbs confirmed?

[Maya]

armor shredding birbs confirmed?

[romanN1]

@mad_lee

*Life Steal
Percent of Attack Damage Converted to Health is a form of life steal available in Grim Dawn. It functions differently depending on whether you find it on equipment or on a skill. When on equipment, life steal applies only to your weapon attacks. If you use a skill with % Weapon Damage, that component of the skill benefit from the life steal. In either case, only the direct damage is considered for life steal. Damage over Time, such as Bleed or Poison, does not trigger it.

When found on a skill, Percent of Attack Damage Converted to Health applies to all of that skill’s direct damage.*

[mad_lee]

*Life Steal
Percent of Attack Damage Converted to Health is a form of life steal available in Grim Dawn. It functions differently depending on whether you find it on equipment or on a skill. When on equipment, life steal applies only to your weapon attacks. If you use a skill with % Weapon Damage, that component of the skill benefit from the life steal. In either case, only the direct damage is considered for life steal. Damage over Time, such as Bleed or Poison, does not trigger it.

When found on a skill, Percent of Attack Damage Converted to Health applies to all of that skill’s direct damage.*

Your excerpt is mostly irrelevant but my question is answered here

low %WD…

Flat not calculated. This was established in vanilla

Which makes it extra hard for melee FS builds. And it’s not like there are a lot of them around.

[Ymiraku]

best thread ive seen in months

[Superfluff]

well

I made a 240K dps Sabo.

Looks drool inducing on paper in all aspects

To my relative surprise (didn’t have high expectations anyway) while performance was sub mediocre as expected - 7 min or smth like that, maybe 6:30 on agreat one…the build was immortal. It did shit damage but refused to die under any circumstance. build for pure DPS ans just mindless facetanking.

Sabo is not that papaer like some say (using a melee combo considered meh for FS as example)

Lifesteal and survivability is not the issue of FS esecially DW. Lifesteal is also great with capped explosive strike on DW. It’s very good at that. too bad more of the flat phys on it can’t be properly converted. Otherwise would be pretty bleastly

[Ymiraku]

yeah i always try to max out explosive strike, and definitely notice a difference with damage, aoe and better life steal.

[afanasenkov26]

May I take a look at that magnificent sabo?
Cuz chaos sabo, with similar dps and high adcth is paper thin.

[mad_lee]

I made a 240K dps Sabo.

Was that dual Voidspire Chaos Sabo? I made that one too. Sick paper dps but adtch was seriously lacking. And it wasn’t really consistent (also seriously sub-par to Rah’Zin’s WH).

I also did make some pretty fast melee FS builds, but one’s adtch is carried but 60% converted Bat(6-6:30m build) bound to main attack and other one’s adtch is carried by SR set, and Nex and Ortus set(5:30-6m build). So I have quite a bit of experience in making melee FS builds work. But on its own melee FS is very lacking. Melee builds connousseur @banana_peel would confirm it.