The vision behind FoA

As the tone on the forum has recently turned somewhat bitter on occasion, I feel the need to preface this by saying I am genuinely curious about the intentions behind some of the changes made since FoA, this is in no way meant to bash the dev team or belittle the work they have put in.

So, let’s all take a deep breath, settle in, and talk about FoA. Yes, again. When the new expansion launched, it appeared to have a very clear sense of direction of where it wanted the game to go. Enemies in the new areas hit hard, Ascended Mode brought up the intensity of the campaign to adjust to what endgame builds had become in recent years, and in return, we got some new toys to play with to pulverize bosses and beavers alike with a gusto not seen before. Oh, and of course immaculate vibes on top.

It seemed to be a very purposeful trade-off: We get more powerful, but so do the things trying to kill us. Great!, I thought. Don’t we all love a strong independant developer who knows what they want in bed in their game? The new class was beefy, capable of incredible damage output and came with a slew of changes that made especially auto-attacking feel better than it had in a long time. Of course, something newly added being slightly overtuned was inevitable, no amount of play testing can compete with the sheer creativity and willingness of thousands of players trying their hardest to break your game. It would be foolish to expect any developer to test for every eventuality.

That being said, it is difficult to argue there was no intent to push the boundaries of what builds could do before. Berserker boasted, among other things, the best DAR in the game, the best WPS in the game, a massive AOE rr-shred, easy access to the new onslaught mechanic, two really good capstone skills and TDM for all things beastmode, alongside huge QOL in an incredible movement skill. You can’t tell me this class wasn’t designed to be a little extra. And honestly, I’m fine with it? It’s new toys for us to play with, reign them in a bit if they go overboard, all good.

The ascended affixes are perhaps the most obvious example of simply adding MOAR to the existing power level. Even if all else stays the same, adding ascended affixes to existing builds from two-three years ago would just simply make them better. That is powercreep in its purest form, adding extra effects to items will always make them perform better than not having them, simple as that.

Aaaand all of that got us to single digit Ravager kills. Alright, alright, maybe a bit too much power, fine. But let’s not beat around the bushes, endgame builds (piloted by very capable players I might add, my kills certainly don’t look like that) have been treating the Big Bad of Barrowholm as little more than a speedbump for years. Acting now like this is a development that has to be dutifully curbed to preserve the health of the game is a little… late, at the very least?

The changes made to the game ever since FoA dropped looked a lot more directionless in comparison to the expansion itself. First some new enemies from Asterkarn areas got nerfed, now Ascended Mode as a whole is getting watered down. On the player side, some WPS-builds were leaving everything else behind, yes, but that did very much not warrant a nerf to the entire mechanic, and it rightfully got reverted. TDM pots were a controversial inclusion to begin with and the nerf necessary for sure, but… how did you not see this coming, if I may ask? Again, if all else stays equal, 110% total damage will quite simply always be more than 100% damage. If the plan here was not to up the power level, then what was it?

It is difficult to tell where you want the game to be headed right now. On the one hand, we have clearly left the late-FG power level behind in the dust, on the other hand, all we get in terms of your idea on where this new power level should settle is the occasional cryptic comment from Zantai. Yes, writing opinion pieces takes time (I know lol), but some sense of what you expect endgame performance to look like would be really helpful, especially for the multitude of people actively testing your new builds and leaving feedback. You are clearly willing to listen to the community in some regards, yet appear hellbent on your path in others… some insight as to what you want or do not want would go a long way, in my opinion.

15 Likes

The power inflation is so extreme that I no longer know what the standard is, but at least I’m enjoying it more than what I paid for, and if CRATE was able to achieve its sales target, then I think it’s a win-win in that regard. Well, it’ll get better eventually.

5 Likes

I would argue some stuff on FoA release was showing symptoms of muddled direction. Late FG player phys res availability got nerfed and enemy phys damage nerfed overall to help make builds without abundant access to phys res a little more comfortable. Then with FoA release, in order to make some of the old base game enemies and bosses more threatening, their attacks have been powered up…by adding phys damage to them. So now we’re eating Salazrin one shots in high SR. In that sense I would say getting Ascended Mode and CR200 a little bit more in line at least in terms of enemy phys damage output is a return to the intended philosophy (though SR seems to be left behind for some reason, and it’s full of surprise one-shots). Blanket nerfing enemy OA is a different story though, I don’t think that was necessary, given how player DA is bloating up.

Otherwise I agree, some stuff that’s been introduced is leaving a big questionmark as to what exactly the envisioned outcome was. You give us an Armor boosting potion and then you’re surprised every build is using it? It really doesn’t matter if you nerf it from 25% to 20% armor. People will use it on every build even if it’s 10%. Any build with tankiness to spare will take the damage amp potion without question. If you want to open up the potion options then blanket sources of power like that simply cannot exist. And if they do not, then the rest of the game now needs to be tuned down. Seems like it would have been a lot less of a balancing headache to just not have these potion mods in.

I’m getting a similarly strange vibe from the decision to nerf WPS chance on items. I’m glad at least the WPS ascends aren’t going away, but all that’s being achieved by this change is that if you’re trying to or have already built a WPS character, and not even one that tries to 100% one WPS but combines multiple, those same %WPS affixes you wanted to remove are now even more required to fill out what was taken away on the gear. So, what is the direction then?

2 Likes

“for better or worse”(depending on the direction one likes), one of the big things about Crate has always been they listened to feedback.
And whether some of us that enjoyed the spike in the new content likes it, others did not.
While the game has likely never been intentionally trying to “cater to everyone” like some other games/"AehAehAeh"publishers get dunked on for, (otherwise bunch of more stuff in GD surely would have been different too), it’s still probably been seen as somewhat accessible to many.
Guessing, also since the changes happened, there might have been an overestimation on how many of the accessible/“casul’er” playerbase was looking forward to the increase as much as others. And i’ve never gotten the impression game was ever meant for a “dozen” people only.

I personally disagree a lot with many of the changes, but i can kinda see where they might have come from or why it altered.
v1.2 will likely forever be a great example of perception differences, regardless of actual effect/ingame outcome, and FoA might just have “piled” on that.
The business side also have to make sense, so even if it’s not trying to cater to 50million different player desires, i can get the notion of wanting to keep the “existing” pre 1.2/1.3 players included too.

Some stuff also seems like it might have been missed/“rushed” out the door in the name of moar perhaps, with certain of the bugs or interactions missed, that then needs insta fixing to not permeate through as the game’s norm.

I don’t remember where it was, i think it was in relation to some talk about base skill buffs or scaling MI modifiers? and Z said that most people like to feel powerful/have a tangible sense of power.
Some of the new FoA toys seem undoubtable with such concept in mind too, but despite that several players still didnt’ see/“feel” the power (eg berserker weak/bad/squish threads), and people that wasn’t sr 31+ end meta before might have felt it even less with Ascendant.
So even if exploits and OP combos ofc would be present (as usual), big offenders would/should still be toned down, but it doesn’t address those that already didn’t feel expansion enabled, so perhaps nerfing campaign, and ascendant can assist with that while they’re getting the exploit nerfs on top. (which isn’t all that self-contradicting to power level still shifting while not accepting single digit ravager kill clears ofc :sweat_smile:/they’re not mutually exclusive even if performance floor and ceiling both shifted, we might just disagree on where it shifted “to”)

Like i said, i don’t think it’s the right move for how “i” saw FoA or what i’d hoped it would be "increase layer"wise, but i can understand it if there’s part of such “we overestimated the avg player’s desire” sentiment on Crate’s side atleast

2 Likes

The gamedev doesn’t owe explaining their vision to the community. That being said:

FoA doesn’t and never really did have THE vision when it comes to endgame. It’s neither here nor there, on one hand new endgame mode and new endgame-exclusive scaling mechanic, on the other disfunctional item filter, limited stash space, absence of any sort of “item rarity” and no changes to “the absolute pinacle of gaming activity” - staring at main menu screen each time you reload game instance (and you’ll be reloading a lot in this new endgame system). It doesn’t help that upon further inspection new endgame mode is veteran for ultimate, new ascenscion system is, in my opinion, severely undercooked and lackluster, new endgame activity boil down to “we recoloured a totem, renamed it and now it spawns the same recoloured boss”, “go pop them containers!” and “kill mobs to spawn big bad” (the last one is actually good, killing mobs is a good past time). The altar should give player agency, and giving players agency in ARPG is universally a good way to make them immersed and somewhat happy, but it is still limited: Can I have more totem spawn spots? - Nope; Can I have increased chance for normal totem becoming Ancient/Celestial/Tempest? - Only tempest; Can I change which mobs/bosses spawn - Nope; Can I change rewards? - Nope; etc etc. Don’t get me wrong it’s a great addition, but I feel like it could be so much more. Somehow latest season of community league had better customisation than the full blown DLC-feature.

So yeah, when you don’t really introduce new scalable endgame content every content addition will be just powercreep, go figure.

4 Likes

The vision behind FoA is to add background lore for the upcoming RTS game set on Cairn pre Grim Dawn, the rest is extra

7 Likes

I think it has succeeded very well at that, actually.

1 Like

TLDR - GD is a single player game so feedback is muddled and Crates are trying to react to those signals.

I feel like the real reason for this “no vision” is Grim Dawn being a single player game where Crate just cannot see what people are really playing. And because build guides-maker community is small (as usual), Crates just have a lot of different voices which can contradict each other. Example - you say that “too much phys damage because no phys res”, I look at my “saved maybe do some day” calc bookmark folder and I do not see a build with less than 3500 DA and 3800 armor rating and like “hey this build takes zero dmg”.

You correctly say FoA is power-creep but it is not equal. Again example from your post - WPS got huge new tools (onslaught and ascends) and they were kinda hot spot so ppl now see it as a easy “too OP target”. But a lot of “too OP” is around new ascended affixes and it is again GDStash discussion…

So effectively Crates do not want to be stubborn, but getting a definitive picture out of human feedback is… I would hope this will never be my job.

1 Like

Yes. The devs clearly do not know what to do with it… Maybe they should just listen to the players more…

This was my question witn many… many things in FoA… It was so obvious form the start…

Yes.

This pisses me off extremally :smiley: Almost no one plays CR and it gets more balance than SR that is played far more…

The entire expansion was rushed by months…

Then quite frankly… we can bash them for it :stuck_out_tongue: :smiley:

The game is worse with FoA than it was before currently…

I think that’s a wild take, but you can play without FoA if that’s what you prefer.

5 Likes

_maverick is, as always, a pleasure to scroll past.

20 Likes

I guess I am just not a fanboy… There is a lot to be criticised in FoA…

1 Like

We’ve all a cross to bear.

“We’ve all a beaver to cross” - fixed :+1:

Jokes aside, it would be very insightful to understand the direction that balance should be heading (since atm it is very confusing), but at the same time it is true that devs don’t “owe” us an explanation, so I’m (and apparently, many are) at a crossroads on what to do, what to discuss, what to test/report, etc.

2 Likes

People have said that whenever an expansion drops, that’s the worst state the game’s been in.

3 Likes

Well, you can make an educated guess on what I was thinking of when I wrote about the bitter tone on the forum.

1 Like

Ya’ll are smoking crack if you say the game is worse than pre-FoA. Like, are we playing the same game? Also, while the difficulty has increased, GD still isn’t a particularly hard game, at least not like how it used to be pre-AoM.

But as for the developers explaining what they’re looking for, that would actually help. Right now everyone is giving feedback for the balance that they feel is appropriate. If it was explained what the goal was we could more concretely talk about A) if that’s a good target or not and B) exactly what changes need to be made to get there. Because, honestly, Ravager, SR30-31, and Crucible timings are great standard candles for the performance of builds.

9 Likes

I now have to take a mental pause when I see ravager videos posted and really look through the build, as a new player that started playing gd like 2 months ago I saw a lot of it on youtube but now I see them mostly for what they are - unrealistic setups (usually). Using double TDM pots and bonus points if they keep the recording going for the part where they die to the life drain from one of the TDM pot mods.

1 Like

the life drain from the tdm point can’t kill you, it can only bring you down in hp but not take the final bit it seems, so as long as there is no follow up dmg it’s safe after the kill still

After two months you can’t judge builds , you don’t have the experience to do that , builds that drop Ravager in one cast or few seconds are realistic just not practical outside of this scenario

1 Like