Thank you for expressing my feelings much better than myself… I basically repeated your post without reading it since I felt the need to reply before reading the entire thread, lol.
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Grin Dawn by its core design is very different from PoE2.
So the short answer to the whole WASD debate is no, GD doesn’t need it. It’s a wonderful game as it is.
As for the TL;DR version.
The WASD control scheme with a dodge roll gives more control to the character, shifting the balance from aquiring as much tankiness as possible to timing big hits, (sometimes way too) often one-hit K.O.'s, which may at times become frustrating.
It gives an overall better feel to the gamplay, but changing a whole game to work with it is simply too much of a struggle. You’ve got a finished game, well-designed and put together, so anyone thinking redoing half of it from scratch might not understand the amount of work it’ll require.
Two things I find important to add.
First is that GDs controls in their current state are ways and ways better than PoE1s (and than most other ARPGs I played). It’s more responsive, more precise and just generally more comfortable. This is important to mention, because if you don’t have any kind of limitaiton (a medical condition, for example) I don’t see a strong need of such a global change from what we have right now.
Second, implementing a controller-like WASD scheme as an accessiblity option could be a totally viable thing, if you make it clear to the community what it looks like and how is it different from a total rework to avoid this “IT’S NOT LIKE POE2” choir.
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I’m not used to WASD movement in ARPGs (yet), but just because Grim Dawn will always be my favourite, any feature and addition is always welcome, I’ll definitely try it, should you have it implemented.
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Yeah if the game didn’t run much better on pc and have keyboard by useful for other stuff, we would just play it on the controller because of the strain to our mouse hand/arm. We really appreciate having multiple control options, too. Sometimes our keyboard hand is feeling sore, but other times it’s our mouse hand. Either way, being able to switch between mouse primarily and keyboard and mouse would be really nice.
Well, it would certainly be a welcome input method for ranged characters, since they are the most reliant on movement and aim.
But even the “limited” stop-to-atk/cast-version will buff ranged characters automatically. Hit and run becomes a lot easier, because aiming with mouse is a lot more precise and dynamic then controller-inputs.
You get the best of both worlds so to speak => Independent movement on one hand and independent aim on the other.
So I disagree: It most certainly will affect balance. Meaning we got input-based meta, then you have to chose what input you balance around and i am sure you do not want that (at least that is, how I interpret your post).
Running 2 systems side by side is rarely a good idea for maintenance-, balance- and also community-reasons, as I am sure you are aware.
So I honestly don’t know, if our old lady Grim Dawn can handle such a modern facelift, even though I would love to see it.
I know…I am not helping xD
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you can already do that with a gamepad…
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I agree with any implementation of accessibility features, even if I don’t understand them. Ive not clear why it’s useful to extend to keyboard+mouse something that you can already do with a controller, but if people with hand pain says that this is useful, then let’s rock.
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I would almost never use it.
My left hand is usually busy playing piano already with the many skills and eventual potions. Even when I play a build with less buttons, I want my fingers to rest above important skills like heals, mirror of ereocates or debuffs.
On the controller, it is a different story because thumbs control the sticks while the other fingers do the rest.
let me give you a practical example of expanding something you can’t do:
We Play a Trozans Skyshard Druid that has access to nullification.
So we have one AOE and one purge/cleanse Spell that both have a cooldown and requires Aim
the main gameplay before you reach a gear breakpoints of “yeetus deletus” you want to and this is 80% of your gameplay mind you
run left, cast the Aoe spell somewhere on the right in the the middel of a pack or onto an important mob and use nullification to remove harmfull effects on yourself or buffs on monsters. all while running away.
on a controller you cant aim that even close compared to a mouse
my brother in the church of Byscilla you have to face a wall to cast nullification on yourself or dodge into the group to snipe the reg mob
so please any of you look me in the eye and tell me why i can’t for the love of Mogdrogen want to hold down D while hovering my mouse over the Target i want to Airstrike (yes i have enough mouse-buttons to bind an orchestra and a guitarsolo i dont need to bind Q or E or R or 1234 but i could!)
the amount of mental gymnastics i´ve seen from some people (not here, not you. on reddit) telling me that dragging my mouse all the way to the left on a 29" screen and then go aim all the way on the other side will always be better or equal or even close is astonishing
And dont give me the “we have a mod for that” b*shit. all of them needs to be maintained and afaik we lost grim internals during the 1.2 rollover no? so yeah good luck booting up grim dawn 10 years from now and trying to get that DPYes to work.
when did this become a US vs Them thing and not an calm “yeah sure”
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For me it would be huge. I have issues with arthritis in my fingers and I find WASD movement so much easier on my hands. With mouse, you are required to hold a specific position for long periods of time, which is a big stressor. With wasd, your fingers keep moving and is using different directions etc. Moving is good, flexed is bad. It would help me greatly if this was implemented, even if run and gun isnt.
EDIT: sorry for multiple messaging, fighting the UI a bit.
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I actually had to stop playing since my hand pain got too bad, with POE 2 for example, I didnt have to do that. It was much more manageable.
I was considering getting back to this game so I checked on the WASD movement and found this thread via reddit thanks to it. Otherwise my opinions wouldnt really get heard. I think that most people who were turned away from the game because of lack of WASD wont really be here to voice their opinions. I just want you to consider that in your decision making process. The forum ends up being a pretty biased source of opinion on such a matter, since you mostly have people who like the game the way it is and do not require such features (those who do left).
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I’m OK with having to stop. It would break the game otherwise.
What we need is some sort of WASD, because the lack of it makes any form of ranged just annoying to play.
I mostly play melee or summoner due to no WASD. Playing ranged chars without it and trying to kite… ugh.
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Throwing it out there, the demo/playtest thing for TQ2 on Steam (and Epic?) features Stop-and-Go WASD movement…though it’s initially bound to arrow keys, and needs to be manually set to WASD specifically.
It works well enough, even though the default control scheme is definitely intended for point-and-click/hold movement.
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I’d very much be in for stop-and-go WASD system myself. Increases the enjoyment quite a bit for me (As I’ve fiddled around with a mod that has implemented this) and lets the mouse hand relax just a bit.
It feels fairly similar to movement on the controller and I prefer that a lot more over using the mouse for literally everything. The only argument I’d see against it might be expectations from newer players, but everyone I regularly play GD with would very much like WASD movement similar to the controller. Some of them swap between KB+M and controller for inventory management/action because of this.
I’d be completely fine with stop-and-go WASD. From what I gather, a lot of ARPG players who prefer it do so primarily to reduce hand soreness and cramping rather than for precision movement, though that’s a nice bonus in itself.
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This does actually look way better than I imagined.
So I’m overall a bit torn. I like WASD. And recently I’m having trouble with carpal tunnel and my wrist in general. I would certainly try it as a new movement option. And if it is the same quality as the dodge mechanic I would probably end up using it over the regular control scheme.
Personally I enjoy the feel of movement and combat on controller a lot. I never use it however because of inventory management (nothing beats mouse in this). So in a way WASD movement would mean the best of both worlds.
With that being said, I’m still fine with classic controls. WASD is not a “must have” for me as many newer players make it out to be. I think GD has a lot of leway here just because of it’s age and target group (classic ARPG enjoyers). So I can’t judge if that is worth dev time over something else like move content or another QoL feature.
I’d say yes do it. For me personally it would probably be a huge boon.
My takeaway from this thread is that we have people that want this, and people not affected by it.
WASD isn’t about the ability to attack while moving. People have been asking for this for a decade. When PoE2 and LE (and I guess D4 though I don’t follow) announced WASD support it was met by nothing but praise and excitement.
Excitement brings players, which brings money to support the game. It’s a win-win for everyone.
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Personally, I play Grim Dawn as if it were League of Legends.
QWER is the skill key
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This change will affect everyone. It’s going to cost us something, whether that’s an extra mastery (very unlikely) or a couple days extra before launch (probably something like this), this will cost something. If it was going to be as simple as just push button; receive WASD, then they would have just done it.
Am I willing to wait an extra couple days for something that I’m not likely to use? I’d rather not, but if others want it, I can wait a few more days.
Am I willing to lose an extra mastery so people can do what they can already do with mods or a controller? No.
Until we know what it’s going to cost, I’d prefer that Crate focus on content rather than officially implementing mod content that you can easily get with a controller anyway.
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You mean another mastery beyond the zerker?