There's a big problem with 2h guns

Grim Dawn Gameplay Discussion
21

I understand what you’re saying. I think you’re underestimating just how much more damage two-handed guns do than one-handed guns.

Thankfully, grim tools exists so we can use actual examples.

Let’s compare Iron Carbine and Iron Repeater (used because they’re the first common weapons in grimtools with item level 26): http://www.grimtools.com/db/items/2413 and http://www.grimtools.com/db/items/2331.

Iron Carbine fires 1.43 attacks per second, and does 40-162 damage for 101 avg damage and 144.43 avg dps.
Iron Repeater fires 1.7 times per second, and does 20-45 damage for 32.5 avg damage and 55.25 avg dps with one gun and 82.875 dual wielding.

Ranged expertise gives 28 piercing damage. With that factored in, we get:

Iron Carbine fires 1.43 attacks per second, and does 40-162 + 28 damage for 129 avg damage and 184.47 avg dps.
Iron Repeater fires 1.7 times per second, and does 20-45 + 28 damage for 60.5 avg damage and 102.85 avg dps with one gun and 154.275 dual wielding.

It’s a little bit more complicated than that because +% attack speed bonuses benefit faster weapons more than slower weapons via a formula i’m not familiar with, but it would have to make fast weapons substantially faster to tip the odds in their favor just with that flat damage alone.

Now, the more flat damage you add, the more it slides in DW pistols favor (you would need a total of 54 flat damage to move it in DW pistols favor here), but Inquisitor, at least, doesn’t provide more flat damage until Steel Resolve, Arcane Empowerment, and Aura of Conviction, where the difference in damage between 1h and 2h weapons has increased proportionally:

Steel Crossbow and Steel Sixgun (item lvl 33):
79-157 @ 1.37 attacks per second: 161.66
27-49 @ 1.7 attacks per second: 64.6 1h or 96.9 DW

Which would require 64 points of flat damage to overcome.

Assault Scorpion and Imperial Volley Gun (item lvl 58):
115-243 @ 1.37 attacks per second: 245.23
22-104 @ 1.57 attacks per second: 148.365

Which would require 98.34 points of flat damage to overcome.

Now, the Inquisitor class provides such an obscene amount of flat damage (with everything maxed out, you can get 28 Pierce (Ranged Expertise) + 32 Phys (Steel Resolve) + 36 Pierce (Arcane Empowerment) + 36 Ele (Arcane Empowerment again) + 38 Pierce (Aura of Conviction) = 102 Pierce + 32 Phys + 36 Ele) that this is actually possible, but even with everything added up it still only just starts to tip the table against 2h (assuming you don’t use that Elemental damage, and you have less than perfect armor piercing, which you do because 1h ranged weapons have crap armor piercing), and 2h weapons get the best-devotion-in-the-game Kraken.

There are other things that help push it in DW’s favor, like the WPS which fire with both weapons if you are using them both, bumping up the DW benefit from 1.5 to 2.0 some of the time (if you have them all maxed out you’ll be getting 2.0 60% of the time, making your DW bonus 1 * .2 + 2 * .8 = 1.8), but all of these things are points that if you’re using a 2h weapon, you could be using elsewhere (like the Fire Strike line, if you’re a purifier, or the primal strike line, if you’re a vindicator, or the Cadence line, if you’re a tactician).

I’m not claiming that it’s cut and dry: it’s definitely not, but you seem to be implying that dw pistols is just egregiously better than using a 2h rifle, which I think is just not true. The only inquisitor I have that’s beat Log is a DW pierce Purifier because I wanted to get that sweet, sweet flat damage + Fire Strike + WPS synergy (also, it’s the Inquisitor: every skill it has is telling you to dual wield pistols), but endgame she’ll almost definitely be nothing compared to the stupid ridiculous egergiousness that is Autentist’s 2h ranged Tactician. (Cadence is gross.)

22

I think you underestimate how much +damage is in the game.

For example, I have an Apostate dual wield pistol build now. In all reality, there is no difference for me to swap to a 2h ranged weapon, something I did a few minutes ago. There is a sweet 2h ranged gun on one of the new factions at level 84 with +1 Inquisitor (I lack this on my pistols). I’m using 2 level 55 pistols atm.

I’m using A shard of Beranoth on both a pistol and the 2h weapon as my primary attack (neither Inquisitor or Necromancer offers an default attack).

I have every raw damage skill on both classes maxed out at level 84. Some of them require me to attack for them to show up, as well as for the Shard of Beranoth to charge up, but it only gets worse for the 2h when I do.

2 level 55 pistols (shows base damage of 52-72, and 48-68. With the base buffs that don’t require me to attack or stand on seal: 14171

1 level 84 faction rifle with (shows base damage of 198-228): 13005

With seal:
pistols: 20675
rifle: 16366

With seal and Bone Harvest:
pistols: 25166
rilfe: 19220

There are a number of other pocs that are constantly going off, so the actual dps is higher, but you should see my point by now. The more added +damage, the better it is for the pistols.

Edit: One more note. This is at level 84. While there is more added raw damage, the base weapon damage has continued to scale more so than at earlier levels. This means that at earlier levels, the gap is larger in favor of the pistols, but as you level up and get higher level weapons, the rifle does close the gap some. Even at 84, the gap is in favor of the pistols, although it may vary some with other classes. At level 20, it’s way in favor of the pistols if you max out a primary skill with lots of added damage (before 20, that is Inquisitor’s ranged expertise, as it’s the only way to dual wield pistols prior).

23

Now, if you add in the Savagery 2h bonus, it would be real close. I’m actually quite interested in try one next, with Primal strike as my AE, but you do need to recognize their strengths and weaknesses.

24

Speaking of two handed rifles and procs, does Upheaval override other weapon pool procs on rifles like it does on melee?

25

Do you mind quoting me on it being cut and dry better? I said very clearly, that skills which give flat +damage benefit dual pistols more, and skills which give high weapon% benefit 2h rifles more.

But now that I think about it, the last part may be less true than I originally thought, as weapon damage% also includes all the +damage buffs applied to the weapon. But depending on your buffs, the outcome will vary.

Another thing I’ve mentioned a few times is the bonus skills that are only available to 2h, which clearly gives those skills 2h advantages.

You are the one who seems to be incapable of accepting that dw has a mathematical advantage when applying +dam to your weapon. The faster you attack, the more often that +dam is applied.

Pistols have lower damage over time, but fire at a higher rate, giving you more DPS per +damage. I did finally start that rifle Shaman/Inquisitor had have been wanting to play. It’s been pretty fun. Even at level 10, pistols offered about 50% more damage over time…until I picked up Shaman, and put points into Brute Force. The skill is 2h only, and now rifles out damage pistols. What excites me the most about the build is the 8% physical resist from Savagery transmuter (I should get to about 40% phys resists with gear, aura and devotions), and that 21% total damage boost, might make the damage close to pistols too.

26

2h aren’t that bad. the main downside is that they pretty much require kraken to be viable. that 20% attack speed and 120% all damage is quite strong (the additional 80% physical damage is kinda pointless for most builds other than phys. melee builds)

naturally, DW scales better with attack speed and flat damage since flat damage is in no way normalized, so more shots (and double shots with both guns) will always give a bigger boost to DW.

however, not all DW attacks will be double shots. actually, you’d need a full set of DW weapon pool skills (100% chance in total) to guarantee that all your shots with use both guns. default attacks that aren’t overriden by a WPS only have a 50% chance to use both guns and will use only the main or offhand otherwise.

early on, rifles are superior, imo. takes a lot of flat damage (and investment into DW procs) for pistols to close that large gap in base damage.

the other noteworthy difference is that there are some attacks that only scale off the mainhand weapon. those attacks will always deal more damage with a 2H (more for melee. don’t think there are all that many ranged attacks that scale off weapon damage - only played 2 ranged toons so far vs. a dozen or so melee toons)

imo, 2H are actually better suited (and probably also intended) for a different playstyle that focuses on heavy nuke skills rather than boosting autoattack damage. (for example - primal strike vs. savagery)

27

cough don’t forget about that sweet 15% crit damage cough (god, Kraken is so amazing)

28

I realized earlier that this is really the key advantage of 2h. I said high weapon damage%, but it’s really skills which have a cool down that 2h shines. Those usually are the ones with high weapon damage%, but it’s not the percent that makes it shine, but the cool down, which takes the pistol advantage away.

29

Got some 2H Ranged Questions, if you guys will indulge me:

I’m currently playing a 2H Primal Strike main attack build on my Druid. I was told that this approach really suffers at higher levels, back in vanilla (6-7 patches ago). Is this still the case now? I know its damage output is mainly for trash mob clear but does the single target (boss scenario) damage output really that bad, with so many options to reduce % and flat resistances?

How are people finding Physical/Pierce based 2H’s builds (inqui/war or night), atm? I know it’s quite early for a conclusive answer, but anyone who have done theory crafting/testing on this yet?

30

I don’t see how 2h would become much more difficult than dual wielding, as the situations which are toughest, are ones you have to kite. 2h does better when kiting, as you do higher damage per shot. Pistols do better if you are standing still tanking stuff. Savagery has some added physical resists to help tanking as well, only for 2h. Although I’m not sure how that bonus is applied, it might require you to have savagery active to work.