There's a big problem with 2h guns

Grim Dawn Gameplay Discussion
1

That bleeds slightly into 2h melee, but 2h melee is better supported through skills. Any 2h gun build is better as a DW pistols build; and I believe it comes down to attack proc skills and the attack speed gap between DW and 2h, and for melee the attack speed gap between 1h and 2h. The extra firing speed of a DW gun build severely outstrips the damage potential of 2h gun builds because there aren’t modifiers on these skills for extra damage from 2h gun outside of the main hand damage modifier; but that’s often the least significant portion of the skill.

For melee builds, outside of Shaman, 2h modifiers for skills for extra power don’t exist as well. On the soldier side of things, there is Blade Arc, but Forcewave builds are more powerful with a sword and board than they are with a 2h melee weapon; you’re getting the same extra damage on the skill regardless of your weapon type. The same point about DW guns can be made for DW melee; higher attack speed = more procs = greater damage output. There isn’t much benefit to be had for foregoing a shield and using a 2h weapon for soldier.

I think the passive proc skills, like Reaping Strike/MarAdvantage/Bursting Rounds, need a 50% boost for 2h weapons baked into those skills. For the active skills, like Forcewave and Firestrike, the 2h modifier skills need to be added, and where they already exist they need to be buffed; especially for 2h ranged builds as that damage gap is bordering on unforgivable.

2

I’m not sure the strength of 2h atm, but you aren’t correct about there being no 2h bonuses. They may or may not be strong enough, but there are 3 examples that 2hers get bonuses that I’m aware of (I haven’t searched for more, these are those I’ve just stumbled on).

Demolitionist get a Fire Strike transmuter that gives 21% total damage to 2h, and 15% crit.

Shaman get get a transmuter on Savagery for 15% total damage to 2h, and 8% physical resists (soon to be super important on ultimate AoM).

Shaman also has a 2h only skill with Primal strike.

and I think Soldier has a 2h Cadence option, and Forcewave.

On top of this, have you noticed the faction weapon buffs give more total stats to 2h than 1h versions do? This used to be the reverse, but someone has paid attention.

3

I have similar thoughts. I 'm currently rolling a dual wield gunner and from ~lvl10 (i’m lvl 58 atm) I only use guns . 2h range weapons are so much worse damage-wise… I can’t find a reason to use them over two pistols. If only you could use 2 components on a 2h weapon that would surely help.

4

2-handed weapons used to be in a worse position than they are now. The last few updates has given them pretty big global buffs. Here’s a few:

Though, I think one thing that almost everyone agreed on the last time 2h weapons was brought up was their dependence on Kraken. I think more global buffs could be done at the cost of toning down Kraken so it’s more of an optional constellation than basically a mandatory one for every 2h build.

5

Maybe after lvl60+ 2h ranged weapons begin to be more useful but I’m talking as someone who did a fresh start and I can say that <60lvl they suck :cry: At least for piercing /physical builds. I can admit though that it could be my bad luck with 2h weapon drops… who knows.

6

Yeah, I pointed out Shaman as the one skill tree with good 2h support and strong 2h builds. For Firestrike, the 2h modifier doesn’t begin to close the damage gap from attack speed differences between dual pistols and 2h guns.

Forcewave is a 2h or sword and board only skill, but the skill damages are the same with 2h or sword and board, and a shield is a very significant durability boost for melee builds; so it’s hard to make a case for 2h Forcewave, but Soldier does have Blade Arc. The modifier for Cadence is to convert 100% physical damage to elemental.

The big issue, as I see it, is the passive proc skills deal the same bonus damages with 1h, 2h, or DW. This gives faster attack speed builds significantly more damage output than 2h builds. In my opinion, changing these skills to be 50% stronger when used with a 2h weapon would be a step in the right direction. 2h weapons really should dominate on landing big hits, but right now they’re about on par with 1h weapons in terms of these passives, yet will proc less often because they’re slower weapons.

7

I was going off memory, so was wrong on Cadence (or it was changed).

However, have you looked at Forcewave’s transmuter? It’s 2h only, and it allows it to be used as your primary attack, with no cool down.

8

2H guns were superior to dual pistols since 1.0.0.2 . Quite for some time Gunslingers were actualy the worst characters you could do in GD. And expansion actualy made it worse. If something need a buff in GD, then its pistols. Plz, Crete, bring them back to former glory :why:

9

Can you elaborate a bit, because I’m not seeing it reflected in game in any way.

10

Even Primal Strike builds?

11

I made a Purifier build with dual wield pistols and a two handed rifle and it felt much stronger with a two handed rifle.

The Inquisitor ranged procs in particular feel far stronger with a two handed rifle and feel pretty crappy with dual wield pistols.

12

What you’ll most likely find is skills with big Weapon damage% will do better with 2h, and skills with big bonus damage, yet modest weapon damage% will do better with pistols.

13

Not really. Storm Spread definitely feels stronger with a rifle because it shoots twice in a row while it shoots with each gun with pistols. It effectively deals more damage with a rifle because of the higher base damage.

It’s not also hard to reach high attack speed with 2H. Around 170%-175 is enough because after that number, the animation starts to get off and there’s hardly an increase of attack speed at all.

14

Storm Spread is viciously effective with a 2h ranged option, as it fires 8 shots (I have no knowledge if bursting and chilling rounds also shoot twice as 2h). Literally one of the best ways to kill a boss with 2h storm spread is shove the barrel down said bosses throat til it procs, boss is now missing more than half it’s HP.

15

If Storm Spread gives 2h two shots, then that is a special case skill, specifically designed to give 2h a boost.

16

One other thing I think is worth noting is (endgame) 2h ranged pierce Inquisitor/?? builds have a pretty huge advantage over DW pistols: they have support in two separate sets (sharpshooter’s and Valdun’s), which both give flat piercing damage only for 2h ranged weapons.

In addition, the armor piercing % goes higher on 2h ranged weapons than it does on pistols: 40% (on silverbolt) vs 35% (on Howdah) or 33% (Deathdealer’s Sidearm). This is super important for pierce builds because the only way to increase pierce “conversion” is with +% armor piercing, which is based off of the original value: so +100% armor piercing gets you to 80% with Silverbolt, but only 70/66% with 1h ranged, which is a lot of damage to be leaving on the floor, considering ranged pierce builds only have like three options for increasing their armor piercing percentage, only two of which can be stacked at once (Valdun’s set bonus, Sharpshooter’s set bonus, and Pack of Treacherous Means).

(inb4 you can also use MI 1h ranged weapons with the sinister prefix to get armor piercing all the way up to 100%)

That said, all of this is endgame stuff, which you explicitly said is not what you’re talking about.

As for the early game stuff, I’m not sure what to say: your experience is the exact opposite of mine. I’ve found DW classes to be the hardest to level early game, and 2h to be the easiest (ranged or melee). I’ve always found the damage on 1h weapons disappointing in comparison to random 2h’ers I pick up, and early game you don’t care that much about affixes or components, which is where dual wielding 1h really shines.

Admittedly, Cadence sucks with 2h, but leveling with Cadence is generally unpleasant because of its lack of AOE (in my opinion), it’s just made almost tolerable with the use of a suitably fast 1h weapon.

Here are some easy to level builds for 2h:

Primal Strike (melee or ranged): Rush primal strike + transmuter, then rush its first modifier, then start distributing points evenly between them: you should be clearing away entire screens of enemy at a time once they’re maxed out (~level 20). For devotion, get Tsunami and then Kraken before moving onto Viper, Elemental Storm and Aether Bomb.
Blade Arc (melee only): Max blade arc, max laceration, profit. For devotions, rush Kraken, and then do whatever you want. There’s a reason so many builds have in their leveling section “level with blade, arc, switch to this build at level 50”.
Tremor (melee only): Rush forcewave and its transmuter, then max Force Wave, Rending Force, and Internal Trauma. No need to get kraken in your devotions because you’re running of casting speed.

17

Early game at least, both Inquisitor and Demolitionist seem to favor dual pistols. All that bonus damage that Ranged Expertise and Fire Strike add to your attacks, is applied at double the rate. At least early on.

Shaman is designed for 2h, there is no question there. Their skills won’t even work on dual pistols.

Storm Spread, if it really does double fire, would be an excellent skill to pair with a Shaman Savagery build.

18

Just a thought I am having but I think it would be cool if you could build a character to use both dual guns and a weapon swap to 2 hander. That would be kind of cool game play I imagine. Not sure what tactic would favor using a weapon swap between dual guns and shotgun or crossbow?

19

While this is generally true, you can totally just ignore that and blast away with your 2h’er anyways, and I suspect you’ll get the same results. They just do so much more damage, even if it kinds hurts to be losing all that sweet, sweet flat damage. 120% * a gajillion is probably better than 120% * (not-a-gajillion + a-little-flat-damage)

EDIT: And by losing, I mean having less-than-amazing-synergy-with

20

I think you are missing what I’m saying.

I’m not talking about the 120% damage, that part scales even as you use bigger weapons. It’s the raw +damage added to the skill that applies at a higher rate for dual pistols. That +damage is not increased for the slower 2h weapon, so it is applied less often.

Example:
Let’s say Ranged Expertise gives +150 damage and %114 weapon damage.

With a 2h, you’d get 114% of the already higher weapon damage applied each shot, but at a slower rate. While not even, it should be consistent. The +150 damage would also be added to the damage, the same amount added to dual pistols, but you are firing at half the rate. You’d do half of much of that type of damage over time.

The good news is Savagery gives a transmuter bonus of 21% total damage and 8% physical resists. That will add 21% to that 150 damage, so that does go to even things up a bit. As far as I’m aware, it still doesn’t even it up. Fire strike has a similar transmuter with 15% total damage boost and +5% crit damage. Also used to even things up a bit.

While their damage isn’t as good, it may be good enough.