This game has 0 balance. OMG is it unbalanced!

[Norzan]

Do you mean invoker’s? And didn’t it get nerfed something fierce?

It’s still 15% elemental and aether RR (even though the latter doesn’t matter for the set). The point that it has it and i think Spellscourge could benefit a lot from a similar one but for physical.

[sir_spanksalot]

Fair enough. I dunno what spellscourge needs, but I think @ceno has made some excellent suggestions above

[Sobertooth]

Continuing the Battlemage thing, I’m becoming more against RR being just slapped on everything just as an easy solution to fix things, but i don’t know why Spellscourge hasn’t got a physical RR proc or skill as the final set bonus just to see how it would improve the set.

It would just improve mediocre Spellscourge Warlord rather than promote Battlemage imo.

Something ridiculous like “50-60 reduced physical resistance to IEE” could make me try Spellscourge Battlemage.

[Contragor]

I would love a response to this

EDIT: @aikimox - As it currently stands, the only logical conclusion I can come to is that you are using “build diversity” as a facade to push for buffs to the battlemage because of some “super duper, secret af, OP build” you have planned for it.

In all seriousness, the reason is very simple and has nothing to do with OPness. We have discussed this many times with a large group of HC players on discord. It boils down to the fact that Crate has no intention of balancing the game for HC. Meaning, providing us with means to make farming builds, - reliable, durable and performing in mid SR or crucible. That is minimizing the risk of death. Not 80-85% survivability rates. 99%+ like in other games - D2,D3, POE, etc.

And given the fact that there’s nothing we can do about SR damage spikes or HC focused builds that boast survivability and half decent damage, we have to cling to these 4-5 op specs and use them as our farmers. Dead simple. If Crate expressed any interest in balancing the HC / SR / Crucible, Aikimox would post his builds. He has shared them with every HC player who had asked for it.

[Norzan]

It would just improve mediocre Spellscourge Warlord rather than promote Battlemage imo.

You mean Templar? Warlord sounds terrible with Spellscourge.

But really, does it matter along it improves Battlemage? Supposed Warlords and Templars getting better from this don’t matter much if Battlemage ends getting better as well with the set. Unless it makes the former two combos broken but i highly doubt it.

[sir_spanksalot]

Which is why I’ve mentioned that I’m entirely fine with it. I can understand why HC players would want OP builds.

But…:

1. You cannot make the claim that such a playstyle supports/encourages/promotes build diversity (quite the opposite, really).

2. You need to accept that GD isn’t going to be balanced around HC. It’s kinda like marriage I guess? Like if I marry a woman I’m not attracted to, I can’t demand that she becomes prettier.

EDIT: If all HC players openly said, we want OP builds because we need them in HC, I would have no problem with that. I wouldn’t agree with their stance, but I can empathize with it.

What bothers me is using manipulation and deceit to get what you want (for the record, I’m not accusing aikimox - or anyone for that matter - of doing this, I’m just saying that that’s what it seems like to me).

[Norzan]

It’s really impossible to make a game that makes both SC and HC happy. The people that play SC for the much higher challenge where they can be killed but they will improve from their defeats.

But then balancing with HC as well makes this pretty much disappear because if they balance out the game by pretty much removing the damage spikes and greatly increase survivability, then the risk of death is much lower and thus you really don’t learn from defeat because you don’t die in the first place. Then the game becomes boring for SC players.

[sir_spanksalot]

It’s really impossible to make a game that makes both SC and HC happy. The people that play SC for the much higher challenge where they can be killed but they will improve from their defeats.

But then balancing with HC as well makes this pretty much disappear because if they balance out the game by pretty much removing the damage spikes and greatly survivability, then the risk of death is much lower and thus you really don’t learn from defeat because you don’t die in the first place.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. Nevertheless, it is a moot point as crate has explicitly said that GD will NOT be balanced around HC.

So IMO there’s no real worth in discussing this.

[Sobertooth]

BA Warlord with spellscourge is just about as mediocre as you might imagine. Hadn’t though of templar, devastation + shield throw? I’ll try someday

edit: skill point shortage isn’t even funny on a set that asks 50/50 masteries.

[Norzan]

A Spellscourge Templar with Targo’s Hammer and chest for Judgment/Devastation combo does sound cool on paper.

[Contragor]

If all HC players openly said, we want OP builds because we need them in HC, I would have no problem with that. I wouldn’t agree with their stance, but I can empathize with it.

We have asked multiple times both here and on discord that we want farming specs. We want SR balance and balance in general. But we can’t force other players to come here and register just to add their vote. Many of our members verbally support us but won’t show up here. So, it’s often 1 voice at a time easily silenced by forum members. But even if all gather here, Zantai has stated multiple times that according to his vision HC is where it should be. Same with SRs. So, we go by what we have. Many people rage quit in the past few months mostly due to this very reason, plus constant rebalancing which killed many reliable toons. I lost a few in places I’d never even consider dangerous before. I mean, I’m all up for good balance and changes, but not when it’s affecting you by erasing hundreds of hours of your time. Hope you get my points.

[sir_spanksalot]

Many people rage quit in the past few months mostly due to this very reason, plus constant rebalancing which killed many reliable toons.

I do get your point mate. And trust me, I feel for you. Not once have I ever mocked a HC player, or disparaged their decision for going HC.

I can’t imagine the frustration I’d feel if that happened to me.

Likewise, I hope you can also understand my perspective.

1. The frustration that HC players feel, as valid as it may be, is entirely self inflicted. You can’t blame crate. You can’t blame Zantai. You can only pin it on your decision for playing HC. And I say this because Z has never once made the promise, “oh! Crate will balance the game for HC players too!” before going back on his word.

2. I have no issues with people ranting about how neglected balance in HC is, because it IS neglected. Again, my issue is using something like “build diversity” to veil your true intentions. I just don’t like dishonesty.

EDIT: @Contragor For the record, I’ve been rather vocal about my disagreement with crate’s constant rebalancing, because it isn’t fair to a lot of players.

[sir_spanksalot]

@Jawa - your gentle candor is something I’ve always admired about you.

[mamba]

Although I think diablo 3 sucks on a lot of fields (vanilla campaign, childish atmosphere, very few variety, set forcing you to play how the developers want… and so on) it is by far the most competitive.

The reasons are simple: leaderboard with access to gear vizualisation, timed challenge rift, and so on.

it might be, but then I do not care for that kind of stuff at all… as an ARPG I found D3 awful

[mamba]

Last three comments are the proof

Proof of what ? That they hang around the forums ? Well, duh, of course they do… That they start flame wars ? None of them come close to proving that

[Contragor]

I just don’t like dishonesty.

I doubt it’s dishonesty. Rather emotions. Aikimox has helped a lot of players and never asked for anything in return. He would boost you from 1-100 if your toon dies and you need to reroll, even if he had to skip his sleep. Being emotional, yes, caused him a lot of grief both here and on discord. He gets carried away easily. True dat. If it wasn’t for him, I’d probably rage quit a while ago. But here I am, rolling classless, having fun, talking to great builders like you.

[Zantai]

Final warning, get this thread back on track or it’s done.

[Aikimox]

Acknowledged. Thank you. Apologies if I derailed the thread.

[sir_spanksalot]

Apologies if what I said came across as a personal attack - it wasn’t.

In no uncertain terms am I accusing anyone of anything. I just pointing out what I perceive to be an inconsistency. And that makes me uncomfortable, because I dislike dishonesty.

I am certain aikimox is a valuable community member, and I’m not trying to take that away from him.

All I’m saying is you can’t have OP builds (which I totally understand is needed in HC) and have build diversity.

That’s all, mate.

[kukuhimanpr]

To make it simple GD heavily favors melee tanky builds, might change in the future.

This becomes really funny given that a lot of players are actually now claiming otherwise, how melee tank builds are actually bad. We even had a thread on how shields are actually terrible and pointless.

And no, it doesn’t. Mobile casters of various flavors exist and are very strong, a lot of them far surprassing any melee build. There are even various variants of AAR, with aether, lightning and fire being very strong.

I just wish, like many others, that build could feel as powerful as others, and 2H Ranged don’t give the same power as 2H Melee (Soldier+ anything).

Yet, there are two 2H Ranged builds going around that far suprass most Soldier builds. I’m not saying 2H ranged is great at the moment because it isn’t, but things are being made for things to improve.

But I guess with so many variables, it’s very hard to balance an arpg.

Now that is something I think most of us can all agree with… I’m sure Zantai
(and the rest of Crate, would also wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment too).

• High SR is not meant to be pushed in HC. You have been warned.
• Balance is currently in the good place for HC, because we have a few praets who can confirm that based on their experience.

There is no balance, no matter how you look at it. It’s very relative to the metrics you use. The game is somewhat balanced around crucible. But if you really want to know how deep this rabbit hole goes, all you have to do is introduce ladders/seasons. And the balance is gone. Because it never existed to begin with. It’s a perception of balance. Drop Diablo 3 game difficulty down to torment 6 max and see how many new builds emerge. You will get Retaliation + Pet + Tempest Rush Monks along with another hundred viable (all of a sudden) builds on the same day. It’s all about criteria.

So when someone states that, based on his experience, the game has zero balance, and even provides valid examples (and yes 2H ranged are currently in a better shape than a year ago, but that doesn’t mean he is off by a mile, especially so with regards to classes like BM), you should at least entertain the idea that maybe there’s a grain of truth in that statement. It’s not coming from a praetorian but from a legit user with some hours sunk into the game, plenty to start getting an idea of what’s going on.

The only difference between Praetorians and other players us that they help is iron out gamebreaking bugs before the patches go live. A good number of Praetorians doesn’t even give a damn about endgame, and recruiting them was a deliberate decision.

In all seriousness, the reason is very simple and has nothing to do with OPness. We have discussed this many times with a large group of HC players on discord. It boils down to the fact that Crate has no intention of balancing the game for HC. Meaning, providing us with means to make farming builds, - reliable, durable and performing in mid SR or crucible. That is minimizing the risk of death. Not 80-85% survivability rates. 99%+ like in other games - D2,D3, POE, etc.

And given the fact that there’s nothing we can do about SR damage spikes or HC focused builds that boast survivability and half decent damage, we have to cling to these 4-5 op specs and use them as our farmers. Dead simple. If Crate expressed any interest in balancing the HC / SR / Crucible, Aikimox would post his builds. He has shared them with every HC player who had asked for it.

It’s really impossible to make a game that makes both SC and HC happy. The people that play SC for the much higher challenge where they can be killed but they will improve from their defeats.

But then balancing with HC as well makes this pretty much disappear because if they balance out the game by pretty much removing the damage spikes and greatly increase survivability, then the risk of death is much lower and thus you really don’t learn from defeat because you don’t die in the first place. Then the game becomes boring for SC players.

Zantai has stated multiple times that according to his vision HC is where it should be. Same with SRs. So, we go by what we have. Many people rage quit in the past few months mostly due to this very reason, plus constant rebalancing which killed many reliable toons. I lost a few in places I’d never even consider dangerous before. I mean, I’m all up for good balance and changes, but not when it’s affecting you by erasing hundreds of hours of your time. Hope you get my points.

i think these quotes are important arguments that somewhat answers this thread’s question of balance. i’m pretty sure i missed several good quotes, but these quotes are relevant enough to answer op’s questions.

Although I think diablo 3 sucks on a lot of fields (vanilla campaign, childish atmosphere, very few variety, set forcing you to play how the developers want… and so on) it is by far the most competitive.

The reasons are simple: leaderboard with access to gear vizualisation, timed challenge rift, and so on.

I think Grim Dawn should add such a mode, like a timed small shattered realm with a defined build from the community, AND an open version where any build can be played. Would allow to easily spot builds that are overpowered for example.

this might be a good idea, but only if the builders of the forum agrees simultaneously to pitch in their builds and feedbacks.

also, can’t left this quote out.

Chill out, kids.