Thoughts on GD/other ARPGs, Post Last Epoch release. Crate appreciation

When I start looking at other ARPGs, I really appreciate the subtle things that GD gets right, and notice how picky I am about the presentation and look of a game before I even get to technical competence, if the gameplay feels good, if the systems function well, etc. Here’s my YouTube comment on a LE release video that started this train of thought.

"I’m not a graphics snob, but there’s some subtle things about the visuals of LE that I just don’t like. The sort of rubbery looking models, the font and UI menus are ugly and very Diablo to me, I hate the bright white outline flash around enemies when they take damage, the bright heavily contrasting red mouseover outlines, the enemies and fore/background models look like they were designed by different people who didn’t communicate and don’t look seamless, and the enemies look like they’re sitting on top of the setting sort of look like back in the FF7-9 days when the backdrops were 2D pre-rendered painting-like image and the 3D models were blocky polygon masses.

I bought it 3 years ago in EA thinking the visuals were placeholders tho, so I’m SOL on that one. I want people to like the game because it looks like a decently made game, and F Blizzard, but the visuals and hard-to-care-about story are a turn off to me personally. It’s funny to me that POE, Diablo 3/4, and a handful of other randoms are always mentioned in the “if you like” or “this game is like” bits, when Grim Dawn is by far and away the best ARPG since D2, yet it is rarely ever mentioned."

My F Blizzard comment is in reference to the progress of a company from small group of talented people, making a seamless piece of art that melds visuals, presentation, atmosphere, feel, music, sound design, gameplay, systems, plot, storytelling into one deeply compelling entity, into corporate zombie puppets who do their best to create something cool that subsequently gets deeply subverted by injecting “how can we squeeze every penny out of people” and needing to show quarterly revenue increases to shareholders/ board of directors. Blizz can’t find the balance between the two and has not released a truly solid product that isn’t just a pretty house of cards since WotLK, in my opinion. (despite the fact that Blizzard has always been a company that does its best work by refining other company’s innovation into something better. They can’t even rip off ideas well anymore.)

POE was kinda fun, but has the rug pulled out from under it as soon as I hit endgame and met the extremely bloated systems from the constant development cycles and pressure to keep people playing and paying. I’ve never gone from having decent fun for 60 hours to “this is such an incoherent mess, I can’t be bothered at all” so quickly.

I’m over a year late to the party, but I’ve been no life-ing Elden Ring lately, and even though it is a hauntingly beautiful game and I really enjoy playing, the cracks in the sculpture start to reveal themselves the closer you look at systems. The quest system is the worst I have ever seen. The tuning/refinement of the damage/weapon systems was done with a very blunt instrument and is not particularly well done, the hit boxes of small weapons (daggers/fists/claws) can’t hit many large enemies at all even if you’re humping their legs because the large enemy hit boxes are obviously janky, hidden and built in flat damage reduction against enemies is a balancing tool, but isn’t implemented well and just excessively hampers small, fast weapons at the beginning of the game, but does absolutely nothing to counter their absurd raw dps at high levels with good setup, the poise thresholds for not flinching are pretty stupid, NG is just Skyrim’s “multiply enemy health, divide your damage” slider, and the systems are needlessly difficult to understand because FS is not up front about the way any system works and many item descriptions are just straight up false.

Enter Crate Grim Dawn. Checks all the boxes. Is excellently made, supported, and finely tuned. Has an ethical financial model (despite having the ARPG core gameplay loop of addiction/reward scheduling and could easily be used to abuse). I have my minor criticisms, but the game is exceptionally solid in every way. I’ve 3,500 hours, near 100% achieve (excluding the kill 250k monsters on one char, build 50 construct, etc ones I don’t care to do).

Thank you Crate. You all tread a fine line extremely well to create something great, and don’t get nearly enough credit from online presences that always mention POE, Diablo, Wolcen, etc. Some of those games do some things well, but GD does everything well. I don’t play city builders, but if I did I would play yours without even reading a review (which I would do with exactly zero other video game development companies). Now don’t fuck it up with Fangs of Asterkarn!

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Well put

Just played LE for about 2-3 hours, both offline and online, after not touching the game for more than half a year… and its not looking good to me. Apart from server issues (to be expected, not gonna hold that against the devs), game looks and feels still very much unfinished. Probably very rushed (they came under a lot of pressure to release the 1.0). Half of uniques still don’t match 2D and 3D models (said they were done with that part if I remember), bugs in terms of numbers and feel of combat - just to name a few. Feels like they just put a coat of paint over 0.9 to finish the game down the line - I’m guessing it still needs about 6-9 months of polishing and work to at least feel like a 1.0

Don’t get me wrong, I like some aspects of the game (skills feel nice, crafting system is amazing, loot filter is probably the best in any loot-based game so far, dungeons are fun-ish), but I don’t like the direction EHG has taken with LE last year/year and a half (probably my biggest gripe with EHG and LE). Also it has too many rng systems that don’t add much deeper value, only surface and superficial value. Also game heavily lacks cohesive design direction - for example unique items are all over the place in terms of design, functionality and art. And don’t get me started on set items - feels like they were put in with purpose that changed later in development so they were just left there forgotten cause the devs don’t know yet what to do with them and can’t just get rid of them that easily. I’ll stop here cause I don’t want this post to become a bigger rant than it already is. At this point I wont touch LE for another six or so months and even then just to get a feel for the changes. But given the direction the game is headed, I’ll probably just get more disappointed because people like me aren’t EHGs target audience anymore.

If you were to compare GD 1.0 and LE 1.0, imho there is no doubt that even barebones 1.0 GD is superior in almost every way in terms of game direction, polish, design, gamefeel, worldbuilding, meaningful itemization and just plain FUN which is what counts the most. And that’s not even taking into account the road GD has taken from 1.0 to 1.2 and everything Crate poured into it along the way. And with FoA on the horizon and knowing Crate… LE has a loooong way to go yet (but at least the cash shop works perfectly /s)

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Well, I installed today LE for the first time and I miss camera rotating so much… Nothing to talk about other aspects for now. Game run smooth and all, so I will give it a go. I doubt it would be my go to game though… Still, will play and see :slight_smile:

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Agreed. Grim Dawn isn’t perfect, and there are some aspects that simply aren’t for me (I enjoy more fantasy style approaches like mages, bow/arrow, big muscle bound fighter, etc), but in the majority of ways it’s quite literally the only arpg besides maybe Chronicon, the first Torchlight, and borderlands 1/2 that is a true joy to play. And of course Diablo 2.

And Crate is the bomb. I’ve been following their journey for many years, and they’ve always been rock solid. One of the best dev teams in the world. Can’t wait for more games, and maybe someday another aRPG that’s finely crafted (and perhaps better matches my personal fantasy/play style a bit better than Grim Dawn).

And yes, I personally strongly dislike Last Epoch. I can’t stand the art and the lame story, and the the skill system really isn’t for me. Such a shame; so many disappointing aRPGs in the last decade. Grim Dawn is a bright light in a bafflingly dull genre.

I think LE is a fine game. It still needs a lot of polish to reach GD’s level of quality, but the devs seem dedicated and passionate enough so I think the game is headed in the righ direction.

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Yeah but still they make some strange design steps like for example not being able to attach a skill to left mouse button … I mean… I am old… But just come on! :neutral_face:

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I think both games are great, but I believe Grim Dawn was made on an existing engine coming from Titan Quest. I could be wrong but they were probably able to put a lot together much faster because of this engine as well as polishing the games features. LE had to build it up which takes a while when making systems and mechanics.

I do love how both look and feel different when playing. I wouldn’t want them to be that similar so it gives me more variety in the genre.

You are correct, GD uses the old TQ game engine, but it’s been much modified and improved over the years. TQ would never run on it. And the initial plan for GD changed as well from the Kickstarter to what we ended up with as the base game. It was supposed to be a small, quickish to play game of one or two acts, but then D3 was announced, PoE announced, Torchlight, and Crate realised they’d need to do MOAR if the game wasn’t to just disappear on release.

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That’s very cool and thanks for the response! I’m glad the team went the direction that they did because they have made a game that many of us love.

They were lucky that Steam implemented its Green Light option (now Early Access) so they were able to use that to keep generating income by having the game on Steam that people could buy into. Although Crate did get just over double of what they asked for in the KS, it was the continuing revenue stream that allowed them to finance the expansion from the original idea for the game.

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Amazing to see what real competition can do in the market. Thanks to those other games, we now have the greatest (imo) arpg ever made in GD. Thank you Crate!!

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Are talking about LE? I haven’t played it yet as I’m not in the mood right now (obsessed with D2 Resurrected, currently). Torchlight Infinite did something similar where I could not actually attack with my weapon if I was playing the summoner class. I have a hammer in my hand, but I’m not allowed to swing it. That pissed me off so much that I uninstalled the game and removed it from my Steam Library immediatelly. I have never done that to any other games. I hope LE isn’t going in that direction where they make certain decisions for the players, instead of allowing them to do whatever they want.

I sometimes forget just how many minor things GD does right. Like intricate map design that intertwines and circles back on itself. I can navigate those maps blind at 3k hours mark, yet they are still entertaining to move through.

Or the ambush monsters, especially early on. Nothing spices up low level combat than engaging a group of undead, and then suddenly seeing revenants appear behind you, cutting off your fallback route.

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D2 will be a forever obsession lol sucks that the ladders don’t have anything new like runeword or something.

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Well IDK,.maybe it is possible to attach skills to left mouse button in LE trough mods? For now my LE offline crashed and I lost first char… Can’t get it back and I am pissed off. Also lost graphical settings in the menus. So LE has also pure technical problems… Still want to give it a try, so I just started another char LOL :wink: Funny thing is that stash and gold collected by first char is available, so… The loss wasn’t that painfull… Still shame for a fully released game :person_tipping_hand:

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As in you always have your auto-attack No Matter What?

Talk about catching my attention, to make sure Humble-Yet-Dependable doesn’t go anywhere. Of course, my favored build in D2 was a bow-using Druid, as in his main attack was, as the Ranger (bow Paladin) guide of the time put it, “the same attack you started out whacking Quill Rats with”.

Not always but like 80% maybe. Also 4 extra buttons for skills to use is to little for my taste :frowning:
Well in this department GD is doing everything much better than LE imho :nerd_face:

I suppose it matches D2R in that regard. Last Epoch Tools indicates room for five skills at a time, but then I had forgotten there are auto-attack replacers (e.g. Tempest Strike for the Primalist).

Still, I dislike having to spend mana for genuinely everything I do. I conserve resources by default (and tend to feel like that using any sort of potion at all means I blundered. e.g. facetanked more than I should have.).

I really hope that Crate looks at LE’s crafting and does something with GD’s that is similar. It is the one thing missing from most ARPG’s.

PoE is too convoluted
D3/D4 is just rng

To have some sort of agency over what you make and have items (that you are wearing) to not be from just drops would make for a better experience.

If FoA did only this, it would already be a satisfying experience and worth the cost.

Well in my opinion, drop chances in GD are so generous now, that I don’t use any form of crafting. I make only components in the smith. Everything else is just raining at me. I’ve collected most of sets just by farming nemezis and shrines during leveling alts in about ~200hours. Also many double rares, so I only collect MI double rares now cause non-mi are not fitting in any endgame setup. They’re good sometimes for leveling but very rarely. So I don’t see any reason to have better crafting cause I don’t need it really. Same with bigger stash and all. With drops so generous I don’t collect legendaries I just salvage all of them. I will find another for the char I am currently playing because they are so common…
Just my 3 cents :slight_smile:

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