I have about 1500 hours in GD and the thing I love the most is tanks, I love playing tanks for my friends who play DPS builds and when it comes to Crucible Gladiator 150-170 I cannot keep threat off them with any tank build.
The best I can do is play a super survivable DPS build and even then I cannot keep them on me all the time. The damage that DPS builds put out at Crucible 150-170 is just so huge that even with Warcry, Markovian’s Helm and Stratagem, Hammerfall Girdle and Serrated Shell’s Shield Bash threat gen procs on a tank, I cannot keep the enemies attention on me.
If someone is taking Warcry chances are they can take the damage, why not make it a 100% guaranteed taunt that last as long as the cooldown? Or put the extra threat gen/guaranteed taunt on a transmuter? As it is Warcry seems to do nothing but generate a little more threat and debuff the enemies but it doesn’t pull the enemies off my team mates and onto me. And being a retal build also requires enemies to hit you to do damage and if you can’t taunt them off other people and onto you then retal is useless in multiplayer really, at least as it is right now.
Of course things like this may change come the expac but I haven’t seen or heard anything myself as to threat generation being increased, hoping this feedback is helpful. I love playing tanks in every single game I play, from the old vanilla WoW days and onwards, to D2/3 and Warframe and so-on, if there’s a tank class, I will play it and I love tanks in this game, but threat generation really needs some help atm as I cannot take threat off my DPS making being a tank kind of useless as you do less damage for the tankiness, but then can’t actually tank because you can’t keep threat.
Personally I would just love for there to be some defined roles in this game so things like Full Tank or Dedicated Healer, etc. can actually be a thing. Touch of Purity is a start for healers but there needs to be more. Tanks need better threat generation or guaranteed taunts because otherwise this game will become just like PoE and just be a game full of different variants on DPS builds. I’d love to see people posting tank builds that can do Crucible 150-170 even if they are slower at it too. But at the moment you aren’t rewarded for going a supportive build really. Would love to see that change!
That seems like a very valid point. I’m not sure because, when it comes to retaliation, I never got past the “why the f… is it always phys and pierce mishmash” and never finished a single build.
With a Witchblade and BP/Fevered Rage, CoF, Warcry and some Cadence you should be getting enough aggro. You gotta be active, even as a tank. If move-to command is the only command you believe in then it doesn’t work in GD for many reasons and aggro is just top of the iceberg.
@ya_ - You can do a number of different damage retal builds with the right items, but yeah it’s usually physical but I’m fine with that because most thorns builds in any game tend to be.
The point I think you’re missing is that someone building full tank for total survivability to be able to say, face-tank Avatar of Mogdrogen, is not gonna have the ability to do damage and cannot afford to build for damage and therefore cannot generate threat that way, the skills that are given to us like Warcry and the different on block taunt mechanics and even Shield Bash should be more than enough to taunt but they aren’t atm and therefore full tank/pure retaliation isn’t viable currently.
@adoomgod - Yeah, I know they can’t do the guaranteed taunt per say, but they could scale up the threat you can generate as a tank far enough that it’s essentially “guaranteed” and maybe scale down the threat DPS people cause slightly, especially as skills like CoF and such seem to generate threat as it is, which is odd lol. So yes hopefully they bring them up into proper effectiveness sometime soon haha
I know there’s something like “generate additional threat”, but never saw it actually working aside of Briarthorn pet. And even when this fuck taunts something, he receives one hit and that’s all. LOL
EDIT: Yes, I am hating on Crate for no reason. Just to have some fun, you know. Eventually I’ll get banned or bitched at by Zantai, but whatever.
@LokiGoC, have you watched the latest 2 dev streams?
Grava deliberately took Shieldbreaker class (Demolitionist + Oathkeeper) and the Aegis of Menhir (Captain Murica) skill to throw his shield bouncing off to every enemy before returning to his character, taunting everything on screen.
That way he could take the heat away from Zantai’s character.
P.S. Hey Grava, just messing with ya. No harm intended, I think you’re awesome.
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Thorns pants give you pierce flat retal not phys. Half the things with %retal dmg give you pierce flat retal. The other half gives you phys. I’m the end you end up with a weak char not only because it’s retalialtion but because retaliation has to be weakass dual dmg. Things like Messanger of War or Menhir, why do they give pierce retal flat? It doesn’t make much sense.
We already received some item changes in 1.0.7.0 and that seems to suggest, that pierce retal is likely to be replaced by phys retal. Hopefully overall, devotions included.
@CthonicSonic - yeah that’s at like level 30~ while leveling, that is not an accurate representation of how tanking and taunting will be end game in the slightest haha but I do like the look of the taunting shield throw for sure lol.
@ya_ - Pierce and physical damage typings are one of the least resisted ones in my experience and most builds can be a dual damage type easy with no problems, Assassin’s Blade proc shreds both physical and pierce res by 32% iirc too which helps both those damage typings (though you need decent OA to see it proc often enough). Meaning their already piss-poor res is shredded further. My retal tank is almost exactly 50/50 pierce/phys damage and he does pretty well if things actually attack him lol. Spellcasters obviously are an issue though for retal atm but overall it’s not bad having both types.
Limiting yourself to one damage type as a tank doesn’t necessarily work because you likely won’t have the standard shred for a single damage type that most DPS/Crucible builds have making that one damage type even weaker, I think that is why they adjusted items to try and give us a more even split between the retal damage types. If you can be bothered farming multiple MI’s and such you can make a good enough acid retal build at the moment but it takes a huge amount of farming and perfect rolls so isn’t really viable. But it is possible lol but I think retal will likely be getting just a little bit of a buff in the expac so it’s all just theory til then lol.
@Aldebaran - As stated above I don’t like the idea of putting all your damage eggs in one typing basket at all for tanks, we don’t get near as much RR as other builds due to taking items for tanking instead where shred would go, which means limiting yourself to one damage typing will also reduce your threat too if they heavily resist it. I do hope they keep the balance that they have created (at least for the character I’m playing it’s a balance haha) so that we can cover more ground with it.
I’d love to see more dual type retal in the future too, considering most buffs increase all retal damage. They cover any type of retal you have, meaning more types is fine and the more retal the better. The nature of percentages is that regardless of the split of damage the increase is the same essentially as if they were all converted to one damage type. At least until they give more options for tanks with RR, but until then I prefer the dual typings, personally.
I understand your logic but I don’t agree. Phys RR (or shred as you say) comes from 3 places: Warcry, Assassin’s Mark and CoF. I don’t see any of these having to be sacrificed for more tankiness. The only place where you do sacrifice rr for more tankiness is 10% from Black Matriarch ring. Many “active” phys builds do that already. If all the flat pierce that a Stoneguard build takes for lack of other options was phys, this build would be twice or three times more effective.
I’m the end, this Crate’s logic you’re trying to defend boils down to “retal sucks so bad already that nobody would mind if it sucked twice as much.” Unless new devotions and gear are designed to facilitate for multiple dmg types for retaliation, that pierce should be phys. Assassin’s Mark is where the synergy between phys and pierce ends. Having both is no good for no build.
Totally agree with Ya on this one. This is probably the main reason why the latest patch revised relics such as Citadel and Reckoning and items like Avenger of Cairn, Reforged chains of Oleron (not to mention the pierce to phys retal on Stoneguard set). Anyway, Zantai mentioned in the last stream that the %retal added to attacks is a mechanic they will introduce across classes (i’m thinking that most likely one or two skills per mastery will have this). I know this doesn’t answer the main question of the thread, but from what we’ve seen in the live streams so far, Oathkeeper does have some skills that are at the very least more effective at generating threat than what we were used to see ingame so far.
No harm intended, I think you’re awesome. 