Give Upheaval a pity timer. If it doesn’t proc N times in a row, when N lowers with the skill rank, it procs. To make it more consistent despite no WPS.
2 Likes
Terribly sorry, gnuffi, but your statement is off and my videos pretty well show it. Upheaval is anything you want it to be except functional. Its a whole build that its fully dependant on metric tons of OA and i showed that even having 5k of it barely helps. The aoe provided is low, the damage isnt great either and despite the efforts it takes to reach that amount of OA (assuming legit play) it wont feel rewarding at all.
aye, i get that, “by you guys pilot standards” - but even then i (and others) dont’ think it’s necessary to change it into a regular wps as fix and it can be solved by other means,
which is then not only fine, but imo more Important, because maintaining upheaval fun/variety as viability, should be a higher priority than just another wps/“don’t go the cheap easy route”, and then make cool work instead
Because another wps would just be sadge/boring/“more oatmeal”
*If someone suggested to fix spam aegis dmg/build viability by removing spam conduit Cadence by turning it into savagery the contrast would be starker i feel 
But because upheaval is complicated or partially seen as a wps it gets kinda lost it’s different and that’s okay, so it should be fixed to make work instead of changed to generic
.edited better example i think
*or back round to prior last round PTR debate where someone suggested to turn AAR back to non penetrating with fat tdm, to not have all beams be the same again, but “nogo because bad for meta/optimal viability”; there are folks that desire the variety > top 100 performance
it can mebe be put as simple as
2h wps builds missing a wps can get a wps “anywhere”/that issue can be fixed separate
Upheaval is a separate build, so if you change it to wps in part to help the above, you’re not creating a new build, you’re removing one to maintain an existing. - you’re just subtracting stuff without any real need to, when you can have the two exist at the same time
buffing/“fixing” upheaval then just keeps 2 options on the table instead of taking a current ½ away
(and i say half because you guys feels it’s not viable but upheaval is playable to others, otherwise i’d count it as a full one )
What does this have to do with the fact that the skill is currently in a dumpster state? I never said anything about changing it to wps. Also why do you keep bringing up this “you guys pilot standards”? Its like your trying to point the finger at us for wanting better things to happen to this game. The only way to improve this game create diversity is to call out things that are not working and show how they are not working.
You shared us 2 gt links while i shared you 6 vids of 3 different builds showcasing how the builds around upheaval really perform.
Settling in one build for less while settling for more on another not only does it show the underperforming factor, but also that there’s something wrong with the skill. Again, its a unique skill that pushes you to grab as much OA as you can to unlock its full potential, but in its current state, that potential doesnt exist.
I like how youre trying to point out potential nerfs durring the discussion, it shows a lot about your opinions, but to answer this freely and without any bullshit, im all in for fixing the spam aegis exploit as long as the cooldown ones get properly redesigned to a balanced state, which was the problem from the very beginning.
AAR used to be without passthru back in the days and i dont recall seeing nearly as many builds with it as we see today. Regarding fat TDM mod, pretty sure it aint gonna happen :kekw:
Agrivix defiler is playable too yet i dont see vids of casual running around like headless chickens, waiting for that siphon souls to go off cooldown today…or maybe tomorrow.
1 Like
banana is, that’s the whole point/that’s where the argument has been/that’s the part you’re responding to
and i partially am, when it then results in homogenisation/detraction i disagree with, when that “fix” is then based off XY not living up to standards and the solution is to gut it/give up on it and change it into something that’s already bountiful.
That’s the whole point.
Back the aar example if it helps, it got penetration it got leech, it got girth, it’s now in a better state back again, yet we still had people note the “similar” approach to fixing/buffing beam skills to perform equal, but some then feel aar/foi/de lost some identity
^this is good for meta, but clearly there is some variety disappointment
because that’s what’s asked? - no where am i disputing how you guys measure performance i’m outright stating the context these feel fine to me
and someone out there might even argue killing ravager in 1min or clearing sr in 5.50 is “fine” even
*i know we don’t live in a world where 5.50 is fine when piloted by top players (tho i think the 1min 
kills don’t help as much compared )
and nt once have i said to not buff it, or dismissed buffing it to increase specific upheaval performance or viability, heck my very first comment was a suggestion of something that could hopefully be tried
the sole contradiction has been re the notion of turning it into a generic 2h wps/specific debate with banana
even had another cheecky suggestion to buff upheavals
“i’m onboard with buffing it” and finding way to positively fix it
remember the original post was i wished for Upheaval of Balance to return
but i’m personally just not interested in another smite wps
Totally derailed. Read the OP topic, thats the idea of it/that’s the part you should be feedbacking.
Why and who are those people and what is their real contribution for this game and community? I could go to LE forums and complain how disintegration is bad because it doesnt crit and i barely know the skill.
I have a different definition of proof. If i wanna make a point i show with concrete evidence why.
I can give you the files so you can try, record, and show us how it went.
Just ask for smite to be shield wps only like shattered smash :kappa:
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with the old PTR archived i don’t wanna dare rely on swiss cheese memory for names
But as i recall it was fellow long time veterans/non forum lurkers that suggested to strip AAR of penetration again
(also i think there was like a whole topic “everything in 1 button or something” that touched on broad strokes stuff) 
/after necro RR change?
I clearly do not remember a single active veteran that wanted that, but i do remember many that would like passthru stuff back.
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Which means to solve the survivability of a 2H build that stands on the spot and survives just by mashing WPS-less attacks. There’s no other way around it. And to solve that you need to overhaul the entirety of the playstyle.
This build will not survive a dangerous encounter of a big pack in 30-31. I died with more regen, more hp and more da.
I can understand the reference to “our standards” when it comes to dmg, but for defence we aim for casual-proof gameplay. Casually playing bare 2H AA is very unpleasant.
I just wanted to respond to this quote specifically because the statement “remove this unique interaction and replace it with something bog standard and you get so many more builds!” comes up super frequently. Yes, in theory, changing Upheaval into a WPS will lead it to it being used more in builds.
In practice, changing it into a WPS will lead it to Upheaval being used around 3 times, people realizing it’s still not great compared to the other standard WPS, then everyone agrees to discarding it and you end up with this sad situation where the unique build-defining part of the skill being removed AND nobody continuing to use it.
Now onto banana’s point: yes, Upheaval needs to be remade into a completely new move. The idea of using bland DWAR with no WPS unless you crit makes zero sense and it’s clearly shown in the videos. Even if you made it into a standard WPS, how is it functionally different from Necrotic Edge- especially as we have modifiers that give NE enough targets where it practically feels like Upheaval without all the strange requirements?
The best option I can think of is giving Upheaval a huge DoT component where landing it means you can likely move on to the next pack as the monsters will die of DoT damage anyway. Since Bleed cannot be converted, however, this intrinsically limits how interesting you can make this mechanic.
Another idea would be to remove its status as a WPS and allow it to activate on any Crit, but the only attack-speed scaling skill that isn’t a DWAR is Primal Strike (unless you can somehow incorporate it into EoR where critting with EoR activates Upheaval?), so even then you’re limited on design options.
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I like this idea very much although our friend here @grey-maybe has an upheaval bleed build and indare say he can speak from his experience if the dots from the skill live up to expectations or not
The on attack/on crit proc idea sounds great too but im afraid channelers will have some wierd shit going on with it.
Personally i stand by the idea that its an extremely hard to build around skill, therfor realistically speaking you cant really reach the amount of OA needed for it to proc reliably, so including it into the mix with wps is the only thing left, but i do wanna mention 2 aspect: one aspect reffers to the fact related to its proccing frequency, moreso if i cannot proc it often, i expect that when it does, it should murder 1/4 of the screen around me, not just some small enclosed circle, so yeah, more damage, built in scalable crit damage and scalable radius too, and the second aspect reffers to the wierd interaction with wps, if my wps crits, my next hit is mandatory and an upheaval proc (or whatever workaround is possible via coding).
This makes absolutely zero sense. Right now Upheaval numbers are ok, maybe can be a bit better, but functionally it’s completely different from the existing WPS because it hits the entire area and is not limited by targets.
Moreover, there is no “compared to standard WPS”. Because there are not enough 2H WPS period. 2H melee is ridiculously understaffed with WPS, and 2H ranged more often than not has to sacrifice valuable gear slots to get enough WPS, and a lot of those are still bad with 70% passthrough individual checks.
You can wake me up in the middle of the night and i’ll name you at least 50 builds that would be instantly either brought to viability or outright born from having Upheaval as a regular WPS.
This notion that “regular WPS” is somehow bland is absolutely insane to me. Remove “regular” and add “AN ENTIRE NEW!” if you don’t like the wording.
The only thing you are changing is how the skill is proced off the AA, mechanically skill stays the same.
Right now any Upheaval build is FORCED into collecting as much OA as it can. It’s extremely limiting to how you can make your build, most paths become linear.
Everything is bad about Upheaval being “on crit WPS”. It conflicts with WPS and confuses new players, it forces linear building, it forces a player into casino gameplay and leaves you with an inherent defensive flaw.
I think, i’ve said enough on the topic that will likely have no results. I didn’t know there was a church of Upheaval that have this skill behind the glass to marvel at the neat design decision but never play.
2 Likes
Isn’t it already what Voldrak doing with Cadence? And also that is much more reliable than Upheaval
If you think Cadence is reliable, you just felt into a trap.
We’re getting two new WPS with FoA that can be used in 2H builds, assuming the Berserker skills we’ve been teased with make it onto release. My discussion was more geared towards future-proofing Upheaval so that it doesn’t become “the flavor of the month” rather than in the context of this awkward space between 1.3 and FoA.
I like how despite making hundreds of casual-proof builds we still get this “by your too high/top20/toxic etc. standards” argument shoved in our faces whenever it’s convinient for the person who is arguing with our pov. Like we are some cyber-athletes competing in Crucible olympics or something.
I think examples shown by 
and Roman clearly demonstrate that Upheaval currently doesn’t work. If it doesn’t work in the hands of an experienced builder who chose all correct items/affixes and devotions for it, it won’t work in hands of more casual players. The fact that you need to amass some ridiculous amounts of OA to make it semi-viable is the most damning evidence of its broken state you need.
Now, I think turning it into a UNIQUE BRAND NEW wps would be the best. Some like its weird unintuitive relic of a design. Either way, it NEEDS an OVERHAUL.
4 Likes
i can run that druid safely in chunks etc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnvCxZNLxnc , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0Uhorwe1v8 /mirror nulli arcanist stonks as usual
(and before we complaint about my speed, remember i’ve run top20 builds in 6.30 and slower too )
that’s because you buys tend to pull/tank more than casaul/want a lot of builds to pull the same amount - “i’m a casual pilot” /my very nature isn’t default tanking very much at the same time
So, slightly more caution might be ok/enough for viability on that front
Dmg/effect buffs i’m fine with/don’t think upheaval has suffered the same “powercreep” as others yet - and with that might then come the usual more attack tank/“good defence is strong offence” for aoe clears being faster/better usual
*atleast i don’t see the notion why sometimes more offence is a fine survival solve for buffs other places, but in Upheaval it will seemingly add nothing ?
and that is a valid point, specially in a new dawn where other builds shine more with less OA anyway
Personally i just dont’ think it warrants turning it into a casual no brain 1-3-5pt inherent inclusion in every other AA build vs something to dedicated build around/intently lean into beyond a passive bump
Based on this i can only imagine what the time of my upheaval builds look like in your hands, not to shit your piloting skill level, just to make a point about the skill itself’s current status.