I do agree. GravaThul is yet in another category (aura/toggle dispell is so annoying and build killing). Mad Queen can also be adjusted to and certain archetypes are way better against her than others. I would add the new big Kraken Kra’vall to the list, that severely punishes glass canon builds; it’s also a good test.
Doing things in faction gear is not an indicative of anything. If it takes you 5 minutes to kill whatever with faction gear, but 30 seconds with much better gear, that’s an huge gap.
The hilarious part is that you are started complaining about N/O Infiltrator being like 5 seconds faster than Trickster. So both can do it regardless of time, but apparently time is the measure of build quality. So, what’s the difference of this and a build in campaign killing things much faster than another build? Isn’t that a measure of a build’s power?
So, either pick a build’s viability based on them just doing it, or how fast they do it. You can’t have both. You can’t complain about the main campaign being able to be done with faction gear but then not realize that you kill stuff much slower than much better geared characters.
Killing something doesn’t mean much. I can throw my corpse until i win, but that means my build is weak. Or if i take 10 minutes to kill something. I swear all Crucible did was warped you and your russian friends point of view into thinking Crucible is the only thing that matters.
Agree with Aldebaran. Measuring the power of a build only by Crucible or only by Campaign (including Dungeons) doesn´t make sense for me because they´re completely different.
Crucible ist a more convenient testing ground; log in, start, fail/win, repeat. But it´s not the same because a build will need certain things to survive there. It is no coincidence that a lot of Crucible Builds have e. g. Ghoul devotion because it is often needed. For Main Campaign? Nope, nice to have.
In Campaign mode, you often can kite enemies or cc them. I hope, this will be possible in SR, too…another testing ground.
Completely different in terms of needs also: in Campaign, you don’t really care so much about stun/entrapment/slow (etc.) resistances. And the importance of energy/life sustain is another major difference.
Ghoul is often needed because the constellation in itself is good and gives neutral stats if you need those 2 red points.
I am hopeful that FG doesn’t provide blessings, like Cruci. While it may make it harder - it might promote some playstyles besides number threshold tanking. There are already so many consumables that more help is not really needed.
It should be interesting and I think it may possibly replace crucible for utlimate tests. Not for item grinding, though - for those that want the stuff faster.
Dammitt did not get premission to update with new gear and devos
I see. Would still be interested in seeing that faction gear Warlock taking down Gargabol in 30 seconds 
I don’t really “deride” Main Campaign, I still enjoy playing it time to time, it just happens that Crucible builds just tear thru Main Campaign like it’s nothing. Whenever quick and effective Main Campaign farmers can really struggle or hit a brick wall in Crucible.
It’s indicative of the fact that Main Campaign content is relatively easy and doesn’t require a lot of creativity or attention to detail when it comes to making a build. You absolutely can’t say the same about Crucible, there is no way you can take on it with a weak-ish build but just take longer to complete it.
How does Trickster vs. Infiltrator even relate to this argument? Both are god-tier builds (for now, because N&O is obviously getting nerfed). It’s a bit hard to dissect your argument, but I will try.
Difference is that in Main Campaign you can put all eggs in one basket (offense) and power thru with a glass cannon-ish build that will be faster then the next build, and according to you, that would be a measure of build’s worth. In Crucible there are so many things to consider when making a powerful build, you can’t really ignore everything and go full offensive, there are some exceptions (like Spellbinders or Rune Infiltrators, both would require some skillful piloting), but in general, you gotta balance a lot of things, every stat and every skill point and every devotion choice becomes important.
Like from my experience, sometimes going from 20% slow resist to 50% slow resist on a melee build made it from 50% success rate build to 95% success rate build, or when tweaking casters (which is especially hard if your caster doesn’t include Inquisitor) - adding stuff like Ghoul, finding additional 200-300 armor and patching armor absorb as well as adding 4% physical resist sealed the deal. Or some builds can go from shaky perfomance to absolute steam rolling beasts just by having additional ~5% ADCtH added.
Again, I am feeling like you are making an argument for the sake of having an argument. I am not complaining that Main Campaign can be done with faction gear or Soiled Trousers. I am saying that there is no challenge in MC that can really take one’s build to the max, and I mean not just killing timers, but all kinds of defensive things, sustain, playability, how much it can facetank, mobilty, how good it can kite, etc. etc.
Again, I am missing the point you are making. How does “killing something doesn’t mean much” and “trowing your corpse to kill something” even related to “me and russian friends” and Crucible? If anything it’s Crucible that doesn’t allow you to throw your corpse or cheese some kind of a hard boss with endless kiting.
And for the 1000th time, Crucible is not “the only thing that matters”, you can play however you like. Crucible is the ultimate measure of build’s worth currently, that’s it, it’s such a simple and obvious thing, yet somehow people get offended by it all the time.
Guy’s got a point. Not that it would change anything but why exactly there’s no Gargabol and Deathstalker in crucible? 10 more waves please, Crate! With six nemeses at 180 and Ancient Grove enemies at 179.
Which is why I said he goofed with the small partial update to old devos ;).
Well, SR does.
http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79118
Up to you whether you pay the price to use them or not though.
And some are weaker. I have to admit that the first time I watched a crucible video, I was pretty surprised that Kuba did not split - because that is what makes him harder that a hero.
I’m going to be honest, haven’t read much of this thread at all. I just want to point out that the “ultimate measure of a builds worth” is whatever your end goal is in the game. If you goal is to clear main campaign on Elite then being able to accomplish that is the ultimate measure of a builds worth to you. Crucible may be the most difficult content available but if someone treats it like it doesn’t exist it’s not the most difficult content to them, therefore not the ultimate measure of anything to them.
ah I missed that specific word 
Now I see what you mean
Ahh. Thanks for the info. Well, guess I’ll just be cheap and die more often 
mad_lee I appreciate you pushing the limits of builds, never stop.
I always appreciate stuff like crucible in games because even though it might be repetitive and not everyone’s playstyle, it pushes the very limits of builds and gives me something to shoot for.
Seeing a build min/maxed to the final degree keeps me farming when my gear isn’t quite there yet because I know there’s an upgrade coming that’s going to push me even further. That’s the fun of MI’s too.
Without the min/maxers and people pushing builds to insane levels then arpg’s jsut aren’t as fun imo.
On the subject of converted Sigils, I’m tempted to wield a Grim Fate and spin2win on top of a fire Sigil. Probably rather suboptimal, but it could still be fun.
Does anyone know how damage conversion will work with the new “x% retaliation damage added to attack” ?
Like if I have physical retal on gear, and physical > lightning conversion, will I convert some of that retal dmg to lightning? I know dmg conversions do not apply to regular retal dmg, but how about in this case?
And also, for those items that has y% chance of fire retaliation (say), would that mean that on average that I add x*y to that attack?
We have to ask Zantai.
zantaiii we do care about retal dmg now plzzz teach us