Yep, that’s the point. So don’t say gdstash to me in discussion about Octavius SnB builds please. I’ve already been convinced that no nerf should go to Gargabol ring long before. Just felt offended when guys always use “gdstash” as a reason to deny.
i wasn’t talking about octavius at any point
i was talking about the “the top performing gdstashed builds”, from the top 20, since there was a blanket mention of phys still being too strong, (and i know some builds from that list use that ring despite not using RF bonus)
and to not touch 500 “unrelated” builds, just because a few is using the same ring to strong results, because other (phys) builds aint
banana himself said very recently that just because the top 20 is dominated by phys, a top 200 wouldn’t be, so using the top gdstashed builds as a potential additional argument was something i was trying to preempt being used as argument for the ring being included
I agree. The ring has not been included long before as I said.
Then let’s punish Octavius, because it is OP top performing but not so-called gdstashed. As for Aegis and Forcewave (not sure if forcewave should be included because Octavius 1H forcewave is very strong too), they can be compensated with stronger modifiers.
seems like an approach atleast
i’d be curious what others like @banana_peel and @romanN1 feel like would be good ideas to dial back some of the more specific abuse, without hurting some octavius builds that isn’t in the same crazy territory
my initial though was “just dial back phys values on mandate and affixes”; obviously immediately forgetting my own main point, not blanket hurting a lot of builds to reel in two or three
*and since they have had a lot of phys builds going for a while their points might be even better
I really believe there’s no point of doing that for an isolated case and further hurting several other builds, especially the intended ones that octavius is designed which btw they aren’t great at all. Those very fast SR runs are the results of i dont wanna imagine how many tries to fish for the fastest run and do not reflect the reality at all. I’m saying this because i tried the build myself and its nowhere near that fast.
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Lol it is not. The only S&B builds that are competitive on the highest level are Blitz and partly Octavius.
Octavius is a strong set but it doesn’t break the game. Forcewave is a mid-tier skill, Aegis is closer to lower tier, mods for them are so-so. The set can be played with just RF but then it 1) blocks two slots for WPS modifiers 2) lacks AoE to be on the level of consistent clears of the best farmers 3) severely lacks attack speed.
I saw your thread on it. Sub4 75-76 is commendable achievement but it’s the luckiest run for rooms i’ve ever seen and the build also dipped to 5% hp vs some random hero pack. (Speaking of the thread, idk what you mean about Justicar in the first sentence. The strongest Justicar build is Sharzul Commando. Shield Justicar builds are nowhere close. Strongest fire S&B is custom RF Shieldbreaker).
Let’s not call for nerfs because of cherry picked SR runs of breezing through the short rooms and lucky nemesis spawns.
I will test cast-less Octavius soon to come back with more educated opinion. But i dont see it changing much, we’ve played way too many things during top20 testing and nothing Octavuis smelled OP. The last monter phys res buff seemed to enough to tame even Avenger and Guts EoR.
P.S. Me and lee have been toying with best melee builds lately. S&B comes awfully short. DW in general is stronger now, EoR is stronger, phys BA and Avenger are also stronger.
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I built all those Octavius SnB builds myself except the RF warlord and I tried them all (SR runs). To be honest, Warlord (both RF and Cadence), Templar (an vire devotion version) and Paladin are the fastest, while the others are slower. Warlord and Paladin can do easy sub 6 at in my hands (RF WL easy sub 5:30). The others is like easy sub 7 and average 6:30ish. At least in my hands they all have over-average SR farming speed and some specific one are beating everyone else.
So are those sub 4 CR runs but they still got on the watch list.
Anyway the sub 4 SR run is there. It’s not fake nor trick. No matter how lucky the runner was, the damage need to be extremely high to do a sub 4. You can never do a sub 4 SR run with lower damage build, like Aether DE or physical retal. That’s it.
In SR environment, Amatok’s Breath and Doom relic are good AoE skills.
Attack speed is not a big problem because in fact RF doesn’t make the most of the damage. Blitz matters much. That’s also why StormTitan is selected if it was not WL.
Blitz and Amatok’s Breath may not be of enough AoE in CR, but in SR they are far enough, where enemies appear in small groups.
Boss room is just a piece of cake, you don’t have to pull them all. Pull one, hit it to 60% and then move to the next boss, and continue this until the last one. It’s a semi-single pull way but it can still finish the boss room in 30s.
In SR farming, map sets are much much more important than mutators. A good mutator set will probably help you save 15s on fighting enemies, but a bad map set will take you several more minutes to find enough enemies.
Then I guess you missed the Octavius Cadence WL. I got very bad map sets for the posted two runs but it was stil 5:30ish. I don’t even have 155% attack speed. Tell me what else builds could achieve this without even one buff potion.
SR has completely different environment from CR. Most cases in CR you only need 20% res over cap because you have buffs and banners. In SR that number should be around 35% (25% for chaos and pierce) if no buff potion is allowed, which is a common farming situation.
Yes, you need high solo target output to be able to run SR75-76 that fast. But the build also has levels of sustain vs solo targets and vs crowds. All those S&B builds you guys share wear this blue belt with a very dangerous proc for your sustain. It’s another layer of gambling - whether this proc will occur in a bad situation or not.
If you remember, there was a time when cherry picked glass cannon runs of select fantasy cold builds led to nerfs that killed the whole dmg type variety for 2 years. Let’s not repeat the story this late in game development.
I would like to see a 3 in a row sub 6min SR runs of a build and then a Celestial fight won with the same setup.
A lot of glasscannons of other dmg types can do that in a small bossroom. And then they die in the next run to a hero pack gangbang. The forementioned superlucky sub4 run was one champion mob hit away from dying.
The build has 8% leech, two main sustain source dependant on 160% as attacks and movement speed dips to below 100%, below 80% with bad mutators. 80% movespeed with no mobility to hit a close mob to leech back is when you die and start over catching those superfast runs.
I watched the first video with Cadence. It was a pretty lucky run for layouts loaded with good mutators. Good Nemesis spawns, decent mob density. The only unlucky thing about it was Theodin.
I could name a 100 builds that can do that if i was in a quiz. But the actual amount is probably way higher. Most of the builds i’ve tried lately can do that. This is the latest one:
Does this need a nerf too?
I consider it pretty unlucky because half of the maps had no Nemesis spawn and cost a lot of time looking for enemies (walking the hole map).
Since you mentioned this, I can offer you another Octavius SnB Templar first because I truely did a 3 in row 10 days ago.
Videos: 恐怖黎明 v1.1.9.7 奥二四神圣殿骑士_单机游戏热门视频
The first video is a single run, 5:06.
The second video is a 3 in row, 5:01,6:04, 6:22 (average sub 6).
Warlord is of higher damage than this, so it will be easy to do 3 in row ALL (not average) sub 6. I’ll upload a video later these days after work.
Oops, guess it’s no need bothering me. There is a 7 in row videos in my collection. (Posted on Dec 27, 2022)
Video: 【恐怖黎明1197】奥套贝眼领主-碎境7连_哔哩哔哩bilibili_演示
7 in row, altothger 40:21
One does not call that an average. I mean sure mathematically average is sub 6 in this case, but statistically, a sample this small is irrelevant.
A 3 in row is asked by banana peel, but you denied it.
Why can’t you just admit that you are not good at SR speedrun and Octavius is being OP?
“3 in a row sub 6min SR runs” does not mean on average below 6 min in three runs but all three runs below 6 - so not mean(run A, run B, run C) < 6 [or sum(run A, run B, run C) <18] but max(run A, run B, run C) < 6
It is still a proper statistical average (mean: follows the definition), but the uncertainty of the value might be still a bit too high given the sample size (and all factors that might influence the time of run)
Alright, I’ll do it later with WL.
Im not denying banana’s arguments, I’m denying the fact that you think that based on those 3 runs you think the build can be called sub6 average. And since you started bringing thenflames around here, the conclusion is clear 
Videos: 某人要的三连和打天神_哔哩哔哩bilibili
3 in row: 5:21, 4:42, 5:43
Ravager of minds facetank (with one LL potion): 81s
I thought in these videos there are situations of fighting huge crowds and the proc occuring in a bad situation.
Also the videos will tell you guys that in SR, there are no issue of lacking AoE and severely lacking attack speed.
Let’s not call it cherry picked glass cannon runs because once you get used to its fighting style, it’s not easy to die and it’s quite easy to do sub 6 and even sub 5:30 and even sub 5. It can facetank Ravager with only one LL potion and the fight is quite stable (even no Menhir’s Will activated). If you call a build of 43% phys res, over 4000 armor, 17k health and lots of res over cap (plus there are also Overguard and Ascension for block and damage absorption) glass cannon, then what a bleeding Trickster is? A piece of paper?
I could fully understand your concerns of Aegis and Forcewave. I knew that too. They were too weak before v1.1.9.2. I just wanna say probably Octavius was buffed in a wrong way. It was the mods that should be buffed rather than global values. Aegis (except retal ones) is in a situation where if there is no super mod or super high global values, it will be too weak, while super high global values would result in something broken. A reasonable way is moving part of the global values to the mods, imo.
Screenshots:
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Lol no. It’s not remotely the same scenario.
Why would we hit a generally used item to target a specific case?
The only potential concern with Octavius is how generally applicable its Internal Trauma stat pile-up is, so it may be worth moving some of that to the modifiers, but even then it’s not necessary to do something dramatic. There’s no reason to kill the option.
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I kid. It’s just a joke.
You are right. I’ve gave up this idea long before. 
Good idea imo!
This is not 7 in a row, it’s 7 successful runs glued together, at least in 4 of them char was in a very big danger.
Still a sequence of lucky runs with overall good Nemesis spawns, several short rooms, good density and zero big low density rooms, i have no idea how you escaped them.
But this is much better, thank you. Not sure why you didn’t do Ravager in one video with SR and didn’t show the setup in game at the end of the fight but i’ll give a benefit of the doubt it’s the same build.
At least we have a better representation of the dmg profile. First, Ravager timer is good but not gmaebreaking. There are dozens of well rounded builds capable of frequent sub6 SR that can kill Ravager in a minute.
Second, the main offender here is not Octavius but rather Amatok rune that allows you to spam a rush skill together with Vire and apply heavy trauma to clusters of mobs. It heavily pads the build’s otherwise lack of AoE.
It’s kind of exploit of the gamemode but it’s a fair one, not a bug. Maybe all rune skills need their dot dmg moved into a smaller flat one. I would agree on that for some builds rune skills are very strong, stronger than some of the mastery skills with high investments.
Another thing you can do is change SR in a way that you have to pick up orbs to fill the meter. So you odnt get to just charge through the map and leave everything behind to die from dots and fill your meter.
This gameplay not only pads aoe shortage, it also obscures the build’s vulnerability to crowds because you mitigate a lot of hits rushing through the crowds.
Honestly, i don’t see anything OP about phys here. You should be able to do the same exact thing with elemental Paladins with high phys res and stacked flat dot. Maybe some of the dot on Octavius shield should be converted into flat or some other value for the set, but that’s about it. This is largely more gamemode issue rather than set and dmg type.
You’ve made a good case in the end, albeit portraying the issue too dramatically. But remarks like this i really don’t like. I skip-watched most of videos you shared and in most runs your build was dropping to 5-10% hp territory with no failsafes.
During 9.7 PT i played RtA DEE with 72% phys res and 4000 armor. The build was close to tanking Ravager but it could not finish a Crucible run. So yes, you can absolutely have a glass build with high phys res / armor values. Crowds in GD are much more lethal than solo targets. Less experienced played will be dying with your build in SR on a regular basis.