context matters, when you’re dealing with a skeleton dungeon MI, from the last boss, something you can’t just “quantity” vacuum up like SR nemesis items, shopable vine rings, then yes specific affixes very much start to matter, because “just” getting 2 perfect phys dmg affixes aint that easy, much less on 2 rings in a single build, so yes, GDstashed is very much significant in such cases because RNGesus doesn’t let you cherrypick in the same manner in any brief amount of time
Imposing, Devastaing and Supremacy have a very high possibility to appear on Gargabol ring. No more than 10 runs can get a single green ring with these three affixes, regardless of RNG. My experience is that if I was farming for a Imposing Gargabol ring of attack/readiness, it usually takes 3 or 4 hours.
As I mentioned, the affixes can be adjusted. Imposing Gargabol ring of attack is good, Aggressive Gargabol ring of Supremacy also works. Affix combination is not limited in most cases. If you put 10 hours continuing farm Gargabol (with vanquisher templar), you can get 2 combinations that work fine.
and am i’m gonna hard disagree on that, if my drive hadn’t died i could show you my stash with a plethora of “useless” rings, and considering it can roll double magick, you’re not just gonna whip that up in 10 runs with the same guarantee you think
adjusting affixes means adjusting other things, it’s a cascade because of what the rare affixes brings outside %dmg, so it’s not as easy as you make it sound (people that have actually tried legit farming some of those top builds can attest to this) - it is not impossible, but it’s also not something you just do, concessions get made the more your affixes are “off” from the posted build
good example is when you have a single ring covering 50%of your lifesteel, while also covering 2 different resists, and another ring that again covers 2 resists, that’s specifically used for those resist combos and values, then yea, it’s not something you “just” adjust, whipping up a combined 100 of specific resist+lifesteal aint just a simple affix or component swap
Of course not the exact ring I want. 10 runs is just one affix, and a lot more runs are needed for another right affix.
It’s much easier than two rings with specific affixes. In fact the posted build need: four rare affixes with %dmg(on shoulder, two rings, medal), 3 yellow affixes with OA (Aggressive, attack, readiness), 1 yellow affixed with cunning. Not matter where the affixes appear. Other issues can be fixed with Components and Augments.
When I was constructing a build, I took the affix combination into consideration. There could be serveral times more combinations than 2 specific rings, shortening farming time from hunreds of hours to tens of hours, which I think is acceptable.
you are talking 1 very specific example, and i’m not referring to that build, that’s the point, it doesn’t just work like that, you don’t magically swap rare affixes that covers a multitude of things, not even if you have other rare slots available, because hey, they also cover specific stats with their affixes
if a build is using 4x imposing because it has 0 vitality and poison res, and it’s also using vampiric to cover 50% lifesteal, you don’t just “swap” stuff, because there are no slots to swap, you also can’t just swap all affixes since some are slot specific “so you have less slots to replace on”
hence a cascading effect
Yep, that’s the point. So don’t say gdstash to me in discussion about Octavius SnB builds please. I’ve already been convinced that no nerf should go to Gargabol ring long before. Just felt offended when guys always use “gdstash” as a reason to deny.
i wasn’t talking about octavius at any point
i was talking about the “the top performing gdstashed builds”, from the top 20, since there was a blanket mention of phys still being too strong, (and i know some builds from that list use that ring despite not using RF bonus)
and to not touch 500 “unrelated” builds, just because a few is using the same ring to strong results, because other (phys) builds aint
banana himself said very recently that just because the top 20 is dominated by phys, a top 200 wouldn’t be, so using the top gdstashed builds as a potential additional argument was something i was trying to preempt being used as argument for the ring being included
I agree. The ring has not been included long before as I said.
Then let’s punish Octavius, because it is OP top performing but not so-called gdstashed. As for Aegis and Forcewave (not sure if forcewave should be included because Octavius 1H forcewave is very strong too), they can be compensated with stronger modifiers.
seems like an approach atleast
i’d be curious what others like @banana_peel and @romanN1 feel like would be good ideas to dial back some of the more specific abuse, without hurting some octavius builds that isn’t in the same crazy territory
my initial though was “just dial back phys values on mandate and affixes”; obviously immediately forgetting my own main point, not blanket hurting a lot of builds to reel in two or three
*and since they have had a lot of phys builds going for a while their points might be even better
I really believe there’s no point of doing that for an isolated case and further hurting several other builds, especially the intended ones that octavius is designed which btw they aren’t great at all. Those very fast SR runs are the results of i dont wanna imagine how many tries to fish for the fastest run and do not reflect the reality at all. I’m saying this because i tried the build myself and its nowhere near that fast.
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Lol it is not. The only S&B builds that are competitive on the highest level are Blitz and partly Octavius.
Octavius is a strong set but it doesn’t break the game. Forcewave is a mid-tier skill, Aegis is closer to lower tier, mods for them are so-so. The set can be played with just RF but then it 1) blocks two slots for WPS modifiers 2) lacks AoE to be on the level of consistent clears of the best farmers 3) severely lacks attack speed.
I saw your thread on it. Sub4 75-76 is commendable achievement but it’s the luckiest run for rooms i’ve ever seen and the build also dipped to 5% hp vs some random hero pack. (Speaking of the thread, idk what you mean about Justicar in the first sentence. The strongest Justicar build is Sharzul Commando. Shield Justicar builds are nowhere close. Strongest fire S&B is custom RF Shieldbreaker).
Let’s not call for nerfs because of cherry picked SR runs of breezing through the short rooms and lucky nemesis spawns.
I will test cast-less Octavius soon to come back with more educated opinion. But i dont see it changing much, we’ve played way too many things during top20 testing and nothing Octavuis smelled OP. The last monter phys res buff seemed to enough to tame even Avenger and Guts EoR.
P.S. Me and lee have been toying with best melee builds lately. S&B comes awfully short. DW in general is stronger now, EoR is stronger, phys BA and Avenger are also stronger.
2 Likes
I built all those Octavius SnB builds myself except the RF warlord and I tried them all (SR runs). To be honest, Warlord (both RF and Cadence), Templar (an vire devotion version) and Paladin are the fastest, while the others are slower. Warlord and Paladin can do easy sub 6 at in my hands (RF WL easy sub 5:30). The others is like easy sub 7 and average 6:30ish. At least in my hands they all have over-average SR farming speed and some specific one are beating everyone else.
So are those sub 4 CR runs but they still got on the watch list.
Anyway the sub 4 SR run is there. It’s not fake nor trick. No matter how lucky the runner was, the damage need to be extremely high to do a sub 4. You can never do a sub 4 SR run with lower damage build, like Aether DE or physical retal. That’s it.
In SR environment, Amatok’s Breath and Doom relic are good AoE skills.
Attack speed is not a big problem because in fact RF doesn’t make the most of the damage. Blitz matters much. That’s also why StormTitan is selected if it was not WL.
Blitz and Amatok’s Breath may not be of enough AoE in CR, but in SR they are far enough, where enemies appear in small groups.
Boss room is just a piece of cake, you don’t have to pull them all. Pull one, hit it to 60% and then move to the next boss, and continue this until the last one. It’s a semi-single pull way but it can still finish the boss room in 30s.
In SR farming, map sets are much much more important than mutators. A good mutator set will probably help you save 15s on fighting enemies, but a bad map set will take you several more minutes to find enough enemies.
Then I guess you missed the Octavius Cadence WL. I got very bad map sets for the posted two runs but it was stil 5:30ish. I don’t even have 155% attack speed. Tell me what else builds could achieve this without even one buff potion.
SR has completely different environment from CR. Most cases in CR you only need 20% res over cap because you have buffs and banners. In SR that number should be around 35% (25% for chaos and pierce) if no buff potion is allowed, which is a common farming situation.
Yes, you need high solo target output to be able to run SR75-76 that fast. But the build also has levels of sustain vs solo targets and vs crowds. All those S&B builds you guys share wear this blue belt with a very dangerous proc for your sustain. It’s another layer of gambling - whether this proc will occur in a bad situation or not.
If you remember, there was a time when cherry picked glass cannon runs of select fantasy cold builds led to nerfs that killed the whole dmg type variety for 2 years. Let’s not repeat the story this late in game development.
I would like to see a 3 in a row sub 6min SR runs of a build and then a Celestial fight won with the same setup.
A lot of glasscannons of other dmg types can do that in a small bossroom. And then they die in the next run to a hero pack gangbang. The forementioned superlucky sub4 run was one champion mob hit away from dying.
The build has 8% leech, two main sustain source dependant on 160% as attacks and movement speed dips to below 100%, below 80% with bad mutators. 80% movespeed with no mobility to hit a close mob to leech back is when you die and start over catching those superfast runs.
I watched the first video with Cadence. It was a pretty lucky run for layouts loaded with good mutators. Good Nemesis spawns, decent mob density. The only unlucky thing about it was Theodin.
I could name a 100 builds that can do that if i was in a quiz. But the actual amount is probably way higher. Most of the builds i’ve tried lately can do that. This is the latest one:
Does this need a nerf too?
I consider it pretty unlucky because half of the maps had no Nemesis spawn and cost a lot of time looking for enemies (walking the hole map).
Since you mentioned this, I can offer you another Octavius SnB Templar first because I truely did a 3 in row 10 days ago.
Videos: 恐怖黎明 v1.1.9.7 奥二四神圣殿骑士_单机游戏热门视频
The first video is a single run, 5:06.
The second video is a 3 in row, 5:01,6:04, 6:22 (average sub 6).
Warlord is of higher damage than this, so it will be easy to do 3 in row ALL (not average) sub 6. I’ll upload a video later these days after work.
Oops, guess it’s no need bothering me. There is a 7 in row videos in my collection. (Posted on Dec 27, 2022)
Video: 【恐怖黎明1197】奥套贝眼领主-碎境7连_哔哩哔哩bilibili_演示
7 in row, altothger 40:21
One does not call that an average. I mean sure mathematically average is sub 6 in this case, but statistically, a sample this small is irrelevant.
A 3 in row is asked by banana peel, but you denied it.
Why can’t you just admit that you are not good at SR speedrun and Octavius is being OP?
“3 in a row sub 6min SR runs” does not mean on average below 6 min in three runs but all three runs below 6 - so not mean(run A, run B, run C) < 6 [or sum(run A, run B, run C) <18] but max(run A, run B, run C) < 6
It is still a proper statistical average (mean: follows the definition), but the uncertainty of the value might be still a bit too high given the sample size (and all factors that might influence the time of run)
Alright, I’ll do it later with WL.
Im not denying banana’s arguments, I’m denying the fact that you think that based on those 3 runs you think the build can be called sub6 average. And since you started bringing thenflames around here, the conclusion is clear 