Honestly it shines with Cru mode because swarm of enemies dash to you, for other mode especially 1v1 it’s a normal pistol overall. If these Cru pilot guys want to nerf their build mode, let them, like 100% pass through → 80%. The change may only affect a minor in MC and SR like vs trash mobs, still the same dps vs bosses.
If I remember correctly, originaly it had 50% passthrough, but someone tested it and it became apparent that it’s in fact 100%. Not sure if it was intended all along or just wasn’t working properly.
Dagallon definitely does not suck, nor does arcaneweaver, so not sure what you are doing there. Fire strike has built in aoe with brimstone and doesn’t need passthrough like savagery or RF, although it gets stronger as well when passthrough is added. Cadence gets passthrough natively, but generally needs additional passthrough it aoe to do well (e.g. deathdealer warlord running circles around havoc tactician unless you’re doing supers).
Maybe it is fine that is the best option for all damage types, but it seems kinda silly like that. Request isn’t to nerf your farming efforts, it’s to try to find better balance between passthrough vs no passthrough so everyone isn’t forced into one pistol if they want to have reasonable aoe/ability to survive in end game content. Ranged savagery feels p awful too until evoker for wps passthrough.
Vortex of souls ps/upheaval is a one trick pony, but I’ve also been very open about the results from it. It’s a super crucible speed runner. It’s okay at 75-76 but somewhat fragile, too fragile for any deeper sr. Supers are non-starters. Now compare to RF sandspitter paladin with sightly lower crucible times, and the ability to do deep sr and all supers mostly facetanking. It’s great, I’ve been waiting literal years for ranged to feel this good! I’d just like more options rather then a one pistol to rule them all approach, and trying to be realistic with current results compared to started balance goals.
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For reference, I don’t play crucible more than maybe once every few month or so, which is why I ask people who are good at it to run my junk for build posts. Admittedly I am mostly sr75-76 at this point and not campaign, and occasionally supers or sr85 to see if something survives.
Playing a single target damage build with no real aoe in 75-76 does not feel good to me because you are also swarmed by mobs. I got to a point that I didn’t care if a build was super sweet in the boss room if it meant either multiple deaths or tedious mob pulls to not die in the shards before it. Other builds types don’t have to deal with this unless they specifically build for it. It doesn’t always have to be passthrough, but more options for it/aoe while possible dialing back a touch of the current physical dominance seems like a healthy step imo.
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Sandspitter is
- the fastest for phys but not by a world of difference compared to Cadence.
- probably fastest for aether, although i’ve not tested proper aether FS in a while.
- fastest for vitality with Gargabols relatively close.
- not likely fastest for chaos, Darkblaze should still edge out, it had a very minor nerf.
- equally mediocre for acid as acid Cadence is (lack of wps for Dervish or rr otherwise, lack of survivability).
- pretty bad for pierce because of one unconverted base and spoiled ele conversion. Both Cadence and FS are significantly better.
Overall, like i said multiple times, ranged performance outside of FS and passthrough is extremely poor. It’s pretty clear why: every WPS aside from Smite is a single target shot or a shotgun that can only spread it’s dmg. Combined with overall weaker itemization and very poor ranged base flat and AS, your generic ranged build is nothing more than a leveling fun.
The only way to tackle the diversity problem that i can see is to remove all (or most) inherent 100% pass through and move this property to select WPS (Zolhan, Necrotic, Chilling, relic granted), so that every sensible ranged AA build with WPS would have access to 50%+ pass through by WPS. If you just remove pass through from Sandspitter, or VoS, or Dagallon… well you just killed several builds and did nothing else. And speaking of diversity, PS spam needs to get more aoe with aoe mods removed from Ultos and green shovel. It will help ranged non-passthrough PS a lot.
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I should have clarified those damage types were for RF specifically, although yeah they hold up well across the spectrum. Aether Rf is workable, chaos sentinel was a rough play without passthrough.
Also agreed on PS, I tried a couple ranged options in test and they don’t hold up especially well, while obviously VoS overly solves that problem. I’d just as soon see something done to reign in VoS if it means improving ranged PS overall. Radius mod would be ideal
It’s not at all clear to me what function removing most existing pass through bonuses serves in balancing here. AFAIK, all innate gun pass through and autoattack replacer pass through item mods are set to 100%, so adding or removing pass through to particular WPS shouldn’t affect the balance of builds with these items at all. Removal of these types of pass through is just a straight nerf to the WPS AA builds AND pass through PS builds that use these items. (The latter group relying on VoS or Desolator for pass through PS is of particular note, since here the pass through stat is build-enabling.)
That just leaves existing pass through mods to WPS, either for WPS from mastery or item-based WPS (e.g. Exterminate WPS from Deathdealer). The only builds that benefit from these pass through mods are those without 100% innate gun pass through or autoattack replacer pass through, i.e. builds that have 0% (since all items provide either 100% or 0%). I guess some of the WPS pass through bonuses could be reduced or removed in favor of adding more pass through into mastery WPS, but personally I’d suggest a balancing approach that favors item skill mods (just my personal bias).
Lastly, on a related note, I’ll state that I’m generally against the reduction of % innate/AA replacer pass through as a means to offset additional WPS damage modifiers— even if average damage is the same, the loss of consistency feels bad.
Just chiming in to explicitly clarify that 0% < x < 100% passthrough does not (or did not at the time of Cornucopia when Doom and I were experimenting with it) work the way you’d think. It’s essentially ineffectual.
I have not (and I’m not going to) read the dissertations on the performance of ranged weaponry with/without passthrough. I will, however, echo this sentiment:
I believe I wrote in the 1.1.9.2 Public Test forums (which are now dead and unsearchable, thanks 
) that I’d simply prefer to see all ranged weapons get passthrough innately and then tone down them all with their new baseline. Seems like the cleanest solution and also one that makes ranged gameplay substantially more fun at all item/skill levels.
I meant overall pass through rate of your attacks because only select WPS have pass through. You wouldn’t have to clarify anything if you’d read at least the dissertation you replied to.
Agreed.
There’s no dissertation in this thread - that title is reserved for @eardianm’s 800 page ranged feedback stuffed in a vault in a dark corner of the forums - but your post was unclear.
Hence the clarification.
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I don’t pay storage costs here!
I would like ranged playstyle more if all weapons were passthrough, like ranged exclusive perk. But then again I am not sure if at this point of game can be implemented. Also some stuff might be OP.
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Passthrough would be more reasonable if it had a target limit
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speaking of passthrough…
spam jax could rly need it too.
sure the singletarget is good but have you ever tried clearing with them?
feels absolutely horrible, sadly.
on another note… some phys. res. to blightlord & callidors defense set would be welcome.
maybe added 10% as 3 or 4 piece setbonus.
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This would definitely need a target limit or holy poop it’d melt everything. Alt; some sort of negative total damage mod with the ability to passthrough
Haha, so like I was suggesting that on Discord! 
Just copy PoE pierce mechanic, it can be on skills, gear, devotions and modifiers! (Also mutators 
)
Although it can be impossible for GD’s engine… sadly. 
But this could be something to think about for GD2 I guess. 
I mean we have pass through chance already on some skills like for example pblades.
Adding something like this (with a lower value) to spam jax would already help alot.
There’s no need to copy anything 1 to 1 imo.
though I know some players would be strongly against it, I’ll nevertheless suggest it once again.
make mobs in crucible immune to terrify/confuse/other effects that make mobs roam like crazy.
in Crucible you just want to hack’n’slash all these mobs rushing at you, not to collect them one by one in corners. this is also super-relevant for chaos builds as they have no dots to finish roamers off, but actually to all builds that have terrify/confuse in skills.
I don’t mind these effects being useful in MC and SR, but in Crucible they’re just infuriating.
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In SR confused/terrified monsters can drag other mobs to you, simulating Crucible mode in some maps, also annoying 
. Scorpions are the “best” in that regard with their supersonic speed.
As an SR player, I have to make it a point to not use Dying God on any of my melee characters because of that stupid Terrify retaliation. It’s not useful, it’s straight up detrimental more often than not. Nothing more fun than having to chase that oversized grub all over the map whenever he hits you, or having to face an entire army of mobs because one enemy with Eldritch Fire on them ran away and spread it on the whole jam-packed Immolation map (but then again, which Immolation map doesn’t aggro all at the same time).