While there was some spirited debate about the new sunder mechanic when 1.2 came along, I think most folks have accepted its existence. I think that the game is in a better state with sunder and evade than it was without either and that Crate has mostly done a good job deciding what attacks apply sunder. The actual damage multiplier values do get excessive, especially when fighting celestials, but that’s a deep endgame issue that doesn’t matter 99% of the time. In the places where most build testing occurs, it’s a pretty minor issue.
In 1.2.1.6, it seems that we now have sunder applying multiplicatively to itself and also multiplying debuffs. For purposes of this post, I’m going to call this sunder on steroids. If Crate wants hardcore to be a fun and viable mode going forward, I think this is a huge unforced error that has the potential to completely change the balance of the game. This forces players to only play builds that can handle a 50% or so increase in debuff severity (i.e. nukes build diversity) or just accept that there are going to be a lot of potential unlucky combinations that result in seeing “You are dead!”
I wanted to see how bad the Lokarr fight could get and managed to get 95% increased damage taken and 750 DA shred. This will kill players and Lokarr has always been an entry-level celestial that is a challenge most beginners can overcome. @Gnomish_Inquisition posted Mogdrogen shredding over 200 elemental resistance with his sunder. Assuming normal overcaps, that’s basically death if an enemy who does elemental damage breathes on a character. I would guess that players will encounter similar issues with Ravager, Callagadra, and Crate.
If we want BS deaths that feel bad, we can play PoE. One thing Grim Dawn has always had going for it is that – while a lot of balancing decisions on gear seem to be based on top-level pilots testing maximum clear speed – hardcore seems fair in this game much more so than any other ARPG. Every death I’ve had in Grim Dawn, I’ve been able to pretty much say, “Fair enough, here’s what I did wrong.” I’m not confident that this will be the case going forward if the new sunder on steroids is “working as intended.”
If sunder is going to apply multiplicatively, I suggest reducing the base sunder values to reflect this new reality. If possible, it would also be helpful to see if the sunder icon can be changed to show how many debuffs you have been hit with (some enemies can hit with more than one projectile and having to pause to double check how much you are sundered versus just knowing the value isn’t a good feeling). Sunder increasing debuffs (not disclosed in patch notes anywhere I saw) should just not be a thing. I can’t see any way that makes playing the game more enjoyable.
This does not happen on prior patches. Others tested this and I took them at their word, but just to triple check, I went back to the non-playtest branch, did the same Lokarr fight several times, took multiple shotguns in a row and I get 49% more damage from sunder and 360 DA reduction. It never increased. That is not the same as 95% more damage and 700+ DA reduction.
Perhaps you are trying to say that this has been in the playtest version all along. If so, who cares? If people think it is a bad change, we should be commenting on it.
I’d assume it is a bug as the quoted thread implies. On the assumption that it is a bug to be fixed, I’m ambivalent. Sunder was always something to be avoided. I don’t particularly care if people get omegauber-punished for not doing so.
if videos are required and the screenshots aren’t enough i can provide from my tests, (if google will le me sign in since these are longer than imgur allows)
“to be, or not to be, (a bug), that is the question”
Idk, I think it reduces power creep problem. People can’t just facetank sunders now no matter how tank you build something. It will make SR runs a tad less fast; 4 boss pulls are now way more risky and you cannot cannot get sundered. I like it I think.
I don’t like this behavior. Makes gameplay very binary. Also not every sunder can be avoided at all times, mobs can randomly chain-cc you out of your dodge/movskills when you try to escape Aleks meteor or Ben shard explosion. I’d much rather prefer sunder being just a taken tdm, with other boss abilities improved, to have a perceivable challenge curve in the game.
The initial reason for sunder was to add an element of reactive gameplay and to limit the facetanking that was occurring (IMO).
Currently you can easily tank 4 pull SR 31 rooms while 2 nemesis are sundering you.
Clearly not intended from sunder’s design concept.
Stacking of sunder adds back the design intention of avoiding it and adding a bit of thought on engaging content instead of “zoomering” past or through it.
I think you are overstating things. I don’t doubt that some top-tier pilots with thousands of SR runs playing strong builds (most of them on SC where you get to push the envelope and there’s no risk of losing a character due to greed) can do this. Extrapolating this out to everyone else, however, is a mistake. For one thing, it’s not something most people are going to attempt on hardcore. Even very good hardcore players who push builds to and past SR40 aren’t quad pulling bosses with double sunder in SR30. It’s likely that sunder has more behavioral impact on hardcore than on softcore.
To a certain extent, if you are an amazing pilot in Grim Dawn, you should be able to get away with things that normal or even very good pilots can’t. That doesn’t mean the sunder mechanic isn’t effective. It just means that some really experienced, strong players get away with ignoring it. I do think that some people forget how good they are at the game and how experienced they are and underestimate how important these things are in conversations like this.
Mindless facetanking is worse, of course. But stepping from linear into binary is not exactly a riveting change in gameplay: falling asleep at the keyboard gets upgraded to “press dodge when see orange flash” script.
Ideally you want different boss abilities pose different danger presenting the player a structural challenge with digestable curve. Yes, it requires development time. Making good gameplay usually does.
If this is a thing now, can sunder please be removed from certain unavoidable sources, like Alkamos ground effect, I challenge you to not get hit with it constantly on a melee build. Perhaps there are others like it.
was about to ask if anyone on a (melee) “normal” build, that had been able to kill Lokar before, could kill him now?, because i’ve gotten creamed several times now
But if it’s getting rolled back i’ll take Lokarr’s (just?) revenge with a smile while it lasts
I have to disagree tbh. I never managed to pull 4 at once with various builds. Not everyone is a frequent player/skilled pilot. A huge majority of the players isn’t even on this forum, and what I do hear from a couple of them; is that they cannot either. Please dont forget that this forum is mostly populated with very dedicated people/pilots (which is actually a good thing for balancing purposes)
