What is the point of Drain Essence when we have AAR?

Thanks for sharing your experience.

I just finished a guide for lightning AAR mage hunter and it is the sickest beginner build I have done so far in terms of sheer dps and damage mitigation.

A while back I was gonna do something similar with Drain Essence, and coming back to that project by doing a similar guide but for Drain Essence - it just feels like jumping on to a childs tricycle compared to playing with a 200cc motorbike :stuck_out_tongue: Sure you can get around, but it slow as hell in comparison.

You can just look at the damage numbers on each skill and compare. I had 60k dps AAR at level 40, which is more than what my level 100 DE cabalist has (with dreadwalker set) and my level 100 DE spellbinder has (with hex launcher gun and MI off-hand with vit to aether conversion)

(if you have trouble with your AAR build, you can check out my or Nery’s gudies for it to get some tips)

Nah, i dont think so. You need the amulet, period.
However, i dont think Aether DE would feel good without Uroboruk set either…

Aether DE can be made with Krieg set, which is much more accessible. Krieg can’t handle AAR, due to lack of enough energy regen.

Yup that is what I also have, a Krieg spellbinder with Hex launcher and off-hand that converts some vit to aether. 55-60k sheet dps RIP xD

Perhaps one could have 100% conversion on Hexlauncher so it becomes “on par” with the Aetherbolt amulet for lightning AAR or Hexflame for Fire AAR… having 100% conversion on hex launcher would push the sheet dps from 55-60k up to 75-80k

Uroboruuk set gives a lot of terrify effect and make it unviable.
AAR is far better.

@malawiglenn: could you link your end game lightning AAR build here? I am planning to experimenting mix AAR mage Hunter in the near future.

Here is my guide for beginner/budget Lightning AAR


https://www.grimtools.com/calc/O2G7nrL2
pretty reasonable items I’d say, I managed to do this char in ~25 hours from scratch (only used faction mandates and exp pot)

I have other versions too, with better Log shoulder, Pulsing shard (that I shopped from vendor in Port valbury) and a better armor (Valaxteria robe)

There is no chance in hell one can do a similar dps build with Drain Essence with same tier of gear.

My suggestions are

  • change conversion on Hex Launcher to 100% to make it comparable to the other faction legendaries for AAR: Hexflame and Aetherbolt pendant.
  • change skill modifier on faction legendary amulet Reavers Hunger to give it 100% conversion from aether to vitality on DE instead of its modifiers to Bone Harvest (which already do a ton of damage)

@thejabrixone I also have a sketch for budget Fire AAR in my guide, and Nery did budget Chaos and Aether AAR here [1.1.4.0] Budget AAR Mage Hunter and you see he hits +100k dps on them too. I think my Fire AAR have around 130k dps I have not checked after 1.1.4.0 patch though.

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:upside_down_face:

Drain Essence of DOOM

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What’s the point of Savagery when we have Fire Strike?

Different playstyles so everyone finds something they like.

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Lol, sometimes I wonder…though…what’s the point of FS when OK has RF… :stuck_out_tongue: Because FS is such a skill-hog…

Which reminds me…FS needs slightly better scaling on overcaps.

Savagery and Fire strike are equal in power even without fancy sets etc.

Drain Essence is in a bad shape dps wise compared to AAR from a “budget” perspective.
I am not saying that DE dps should be the same as AAR, but consider changing some item skill modifiers/conversions on legendary faction gear (Hex Launcher, Reaver’s Hunger) so that Drain Essence become on par with ARR builds that are using the legendary faction gear for AAR (Hexflame, Aetherbolt pendant)

Yes, especially static strike IMO

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Its not like Savagery has more than double DPS compared to FS with similar budget gearing.

But ok, lets keep Drain Essence at 50k DPS until you get Urobooruk set or go Retaliation with the amulet :slight_smile:

And its not like 100% conversion on Hex Launcher will break anything since Urobooruk DE gets 100% conversion anyway, and similar with vitality Drain Essence … it will not create a monster, it will make Drain Essence feel a bit more powerful for someone who is pretty new to Grim Dawn.

This is a pretty hard blanket statement to make.

Even if you’re excluding sets, where do you factor in Might of the Bear for Savagery and how it overall works well with 2-handed weapons (due to the large % weapon damage it can attain) + the great stat bonuses it provides. Or the large amounts of Fire/Lightning/Chaos damage Fire Strike can put out on DW melee/ranged builds and how it pairs incredibly with multi-target/projectile WPSes?

It makes more sense to say that Savagery and Fire Strike both have their niches that they are strong in if you want to try and compare the two. Drain Essence is arguably similar - built-in life steal (not requiring/locking out specific item slots to achieve in the case of AAR) and AoE that is more “wide” than “straight line”. AAR’s AoE in theory should work better than Drain Essence in tight corridors/interiors but in open areas/exteriors, Drain Essence should do better at handling big groups that clump around you.

I have testplayed several budget Savagery and ranged Fire Strike builds with similar tier of gearing, they both performed similar, but in a different fashion.

Maybe, but is more than 50% lower sheet dps compared to AAR “worth” it? Perhaps I just have hard time to see the differences in AAR vs. Drain Essence…

What do you think about my suggestion for increasing conversion on Hex Launcher and changing item skill modifier on Reavers Hunger from Bone Harvest to vitality Drain Essence?

It could be, but you have to focus on the retal rather than DE at that stage.

On FS vs savagery, it all depends on the context. Ranged DW firestrike is better than savagery without the sets because of the synergy between brimstone, explosive strike, static and the inq WPS. On melee savagery is sooooooo much better because fire strike’s weapon damage is total shit so it’s less synergy with WPS.

I’m no expert as I’m still in the process of getting all of my characters (like 24 of 'em) to Elite before I start pushing that difficulty in earnest (it’s just the way I play), but I’ve made an Aether/Vit Spellbinder that uses both AAR and DE (I just wanted to make a full channeler build) and to me, they are two very different skills, and each fulfill a different role. Though, take what I say with a grain of salt, as I’ve not played that character much since the addition of piercing to AAR (and the associated damage nerf).

To me, DE is a clearing skill. Depending on the environment you fight in, enemies won’t always line up for you to be melted by AAR. But you can be almost certain that enemies will do their utmost to close in and surround you (plus, many just spawn right on top of you), which is where DE excells. Where AAR will be killing monsters one at a time (bar the occasional ranged monster caught in the line), DE fulfills the AoE duties at close range perfectly. DE also has a fairly significant DoT component which AAR lacks (unless you scale Electrocute), and due to the random nature of the “AoE scatter” DE has, the skill’s DoT will affect many more monster than its max target cap would suggest. Seeing as the DoT is fairly significant, a single lash of DE can apply enough DoT to just kill a trash mob outright. So with a brief channel, you can easily down 10 monsters with DoT in the next few seconds. AAR then fulfills the DPS function when more resilient monsters like bosses come around. The two skills can also function fairly decently when comboed together for this reason, as you can just quickly apply the DoT from DE and then channel the rest down with AAR to enhance your DPS.

Another important aspect is sustainability, accessibility and survivability. It takes a hot minute for a new character to get to AAR. It takes a bloody eternity for AAR to become sustainable for a new character. At lvl 75, I still can’t keep AAR going too long before I run out of Energy, despite a hefty amount of regen. Using AAR as a clearing skill at that point simply isn’t suistainable, while DE not only provides better AoE but isn’t as much of a resource hog either. In addition, both skills require you to stand still in order to get your DPS out, and both incentivise the use of caster gear. That means you won’t be particularly tanky (low armor, no block and shield synergies, etc.) and will make for an easy target for ground-target abilities. AAR had my health getting dangerously low if I channelled a little too long in one place, where DE allowed me to just stand there and tank it all up front without a worry due to its built-in lifesteal and offensive ability debuff. Overall, it just makes for a much better facetank clearing skill than AAR.

Obviously, I imagine that if you were to make an AAR-only or a DE-only build, the comparison would probably look very different and there, DE might really lag behind in terms of damage. But when put next to each other, they really seem to me to fulfill different functions and excell at different things, so much so that I put them both in the same build and it didn’t feel redundant. It is possible that once my character is fully equipped with lategame sets and gear, I might just have to choose one over the other, as I won’t be able to properly support both, but I’d wager that DE will still make for a better clearing skill through sustainability, convenience and fire-and-forget capability than a fully supported AAR would.

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Electrocute.

Aether focused DE will have no DoT.

Then you are doing something wrong, I have played with maxed AAR and disintegration from level 36 and have never had to pop an energy pot.

This is also very gear dependent, perhaps you felt more tanky with the DE build because you had higher armor or something. As I calculated above, DE has about 50% higher life steal potency than AAR.

I might do a fresh start DE build when I am “done” with my shieldbreaker just to compare it with my AAR build diary I made for my guide. I’ll probably go with Vitality DE and Cabalist.

Yeah I fixed the DoT damage type already while you were answering. The fact that it’s electrocute makes it even worse to me in terms of DoT, because AAR does Fire and Aether up front, but then asks you to scale Electrocute if you want DoT. You can easily support Vit + Aether in one build to scale both parts of DE where you’d have to scale 3 to get the most out of AAR (if we count lightning and electrocute as one damage type, which they technically aren’t for scaling).

And again, I’m playing AAR and DE in the same character. I didn’t feel more tanky because of higher armor, I was using both skills on the same build. Clearing with AAR had me nervously gazing on my health bar looking out for big nuke spikes where DE’s lifesteal + OA debuffing had me sitting comfortably in the middle of hostile ground effects, getting hammered on from range, and healing to full constantly from the melee mobs I was killing.