[1.0.6.1] Spellbinder, Bane of Celestials

[Witcher]

Ravenous Earth got 48% chance to proc mines.

True. Which, still, means 0,52^4 = 0,073% chance that you won’t get new mine while previous one is on, or 92,7% RR uptime. 5% more uptime, but at the cost of casting the debuff more often (I cast Omen once per 5s or so - to make sure boss is 100% weakened - but you will have to recast Earth once every 3,6s or so). Also, you will need more skill points (1 into Earth + 12 into Decay), while I need just 10 into Omen - to receive less effect than me (eq gives +4 to Omen, which results in 27% total dmg reduction, but just +2 to Earth and Decay, which gives 26% reduction). Well ok, Decay protects from all kinds of damage, so the latter argument might be moot… still 3 points into debuff is 3 less points into either Inferno or Elemental Balance. Maybe you are right, and maybe not… I’d say these are interchangeable options.

Though, any way you can’t throw away Sacred (because of RR), so why not use it as activator as well?

Here is “math” for you: a video demonstration of how effective RE is for proccing mines

Dude, you’ve got 4 (!) targets there! You can’t expect as much while having just a single target (superboss).

My point was that Agrivix is as strong and stronger for CT spam. It has been proven multiple times, see x1x2 thread with sub 6:30 runs done with Agrivix set (and that is without Anasteria hat).

Well, there is a major problem with crucible… it’s not as much about math and build as about tactics and reactions. I.e. not as much about brain as about spinal cord. The latter is not my strong side, I admit, so I don’t use arena as a build testing platform. I use it to farm eq only hehe. But even then sometimes it’s worse than campaign… for example, I’ve killed Anasteria during 169th wave hundreds of times, yet haven’t got her hood. NEITHER hood, not even blue one! Either “designed” 6% drop chance does not work there, or American random is just so much evil random

But Ravager kill is a gimmicky achievement that requires a gimmicky build, nothing to add here.

I can add: this is a kill which requires almost 100% skill abstraction. I.e. it’s your character fighting, not you (as it SHOULD be in any 100% RPG, IMHO). With a decent set of macro bindings it’s your build that matters - not your ability to press buttons. So, I think, this is better way to test builds than Crucible: you can borrow someone’s build and enhance it with your skill, you can’t borrow someone’s skill, can you?

Now, getting closer to my point. If you have -100% resist reduction, monster with his resist reduced to -50% will receive 300 damage. If you add Sacred Strike RR here (18%), he will have resist reduced to -68% he will receive 336 damage. Difference between 300 damage and 336 damage is 11%. You see what I am saying?

Indeed - told you, math is my preferred language! Though, problem is: Ravager has 103% resistances So, even in case we assume that I have RR set described in the start post (39 (Spectral Wrath) + 35 (Widow) + 18 (Sacred Strike) + 15 (relic) + 15 (ring) + 10 (Agrivix bonus on Siphon)) 100% up (which is not true because Widow does not have 100% activator, and ring RR needs some 10 hits at average to be reactivated again), it’s going to be difference between 103-114 = -11% (without Sacred) and -29% (with Sacred). This basically means Sacred still adds 129/111 = 16,2% bonus damage: definitely not a thing to throw away easily, eh? In reality it’s going to grant you even higher bonus (because of Widow having just 87,6% uptime and ring RR having about 75% uptime).

Also, I wouldn’t rely on Ishtak too much, it’s proc is surely getting a nerf hammer in the next patch, it’s way to op.

We have a saying here, which could be translated like “don’t die before death actually comes”. Let’s wait till addon is released - maybe it won’t be as bad as you think.

[mad_lee]

True. Which, still, means 0,52^4 = 0,073% chance that you won’t get new mine while previous one is on, or 92,7% RR uptime. 5% more uptime, but at the cost of casting the debuff more often (I cast Omen once per 5s or so - to make sure boss is 100% weakened - but you will have to recast Earth once every 3,6s or so). Also, you will need more skill points (1 into Earth + 12 into Decay), while I need just 10 into Omen - to receive less effect than me (eq gives +4 to Omen, which results in 27% total dmg reduction, but just +2 to Earth and Decay, which gives 26% reduction). Well ok, Decay protects from all kinds of damage, so the latter argument might be moot… still 3 points into debuff is 3 less points into either Inferno or Elemental Balance. Maybe you are right, and maybe not… I’d say these are interchangeable options.

Though, any way you can’t throw away Sacred (because of RR), so why not use it as activator as well?

Why not, as I said, Ravager builds are very gimmicky and work well only versus Ravager.

Dude, you’ve got 4 (!) targets there! You can’t expect as much while having just a single target (superboss).

Because of how many projectiles RE has, it always procs on one target. You can test it yourself if you don’t believe me.

Well, there is a major problem with crucible… it’s not as much about math and build as about tactics and reactions. I.e. not as much about brain as about spinal cord. The latter is not my strong side, I admit, so I don’t use arena as a build testing platform.

Well, for better or for worth Crucible is an ultimate testing platform for builds, for now. And with Agrivix Binder with Star Pact you don’t need reactions. I facetanked everything, did like 6 runs, and died zero times with Star Pact spec, and I was playing Agrivix Binder for the first time in my life. It’s literally impossible to die with it, even if you mess up rotations of your mirror/mot/TD/mirror.

I can add: this is a kill which requires almost 100% skill abstraction. I.e. it’s your character fighting, not you (as it SHOULD be in any 100% RPG, IMHO). With a decent set of macro bindings it’s your build that matters - not your ability to press buttons. So, I think, this is better way to test builds than Crucible: you can borrow someone’s build and enhance it with your skill, you can’t borrow someone’s skill, can you?

I never used any macros, and I did kill Ravager with mymelee Infiltrator. Very far from 100% skill abstraction I should say. Requires a very focused piloting unless you have an over-the-top tank and precise skill rotation. And again, all it does is it tests a certain Ravager build’s viability against Ravager, nothing more. Nowhere else would that spec be effective or even good, nowhere else would you juggle your skills and potions and tinctures like a mad man. It just proves that this particular Ravager’s spec is effective against Ravager. That’s it.

Indeed - told you, math is my preferred language! Though, problem is: Ravager has 103% resistances So, even in case we assume that I have RR set described in the start post (39 (Spectral Wrath) + 35 (Widow) + 18 (Sacred Strike) + 15 (relic) + 15 (ring) + 10 (Agrivix bonus on Siphon)) 100% up (which is not true because Widow does not have 100% activator, and ring RR needs some 10 hits at average to be reactivated again), it’s going to be difference between 103-114 = -11% (without Sacred) and -29% (with Sacred). This basically means Sacred still adds 129/111 = 16,2% bonus damage: definitely not a thing to throw away easily, eh? In reality it’s going to grant you even higher bonus (because of Widow having just 87,6% uptime and ring RR having about 75% uptime).

Again, my point was that Sacred Strike is borderline useless anywhere but in your specific Ravager build. You did your homework there, props to you, but again, outside Ravager kill Sacred Strike would be suboptimal on any Spellbinder spec.

We have a saying here, which could be translated like “don’t die before death actually comes”. Let’s wait till addon is released - maybe it won’t be as bad as you think.

Not sure what saying it is (I am Russian too), but Ishtak is bound to get nerfed, mark my words. It’s a broken mechanic on high cdr builds that let’s a lot of squishy unbalanced builds work just because they have CDR (referring to a lot of Chinese builds that exploit that devotion hard).

[malawiglenn]

Why not, as I said, Ravager builds are very gimmicky and work well only versus Ravager.

Gladiator builds can be seen as gimmick builds too since they require the blessings to work. Why does every build posted here be measured in Crucible metrics?

[mad_lee]

Gladiator builds can be seen as gimmick builds too since they require the blessings to work. Why does every build posted here be measured in Crucible metrics?

Because it’s the ultimate farming content and thus an ultimate metric for a build. And Gladiator builds without blessings rip Main Campaign content a new one with minor adjustments or with no adjustments at all. How else would you measure Grim Dawn builds?

[malawiglenn]

Because it’s the ultimate farming content and thus an ultimate metric for a build. And Gladiator builds without blessings rip Main Campaign content a new one with minor adjustments or with no adjustments at all. How else would you measure Grim Dawn builds?

No far from all gladiator builds can even touch Ravager…

[mad_lee]

No far from all gladiator builds can even touch Ravager…

I agree, there is no argument here. I said it many times, Ravager builds are very specific gimmicky things that are only good Ravager fights. No ravager build can touch Mogdrogen. And most Ravager builds will be slow in Crucible. But because Ravager and Mogdrogen are just tiny tiny parts of the game, while Main Campaign and Crucible are what the game is, and Crucible builds crush Main Campaign, Crucible is an ultimate test.

Personally, I don’t like Crucible, it’s too stressful and tilting for me, but I realise that it’s the standard when I am making a build. It’s gonna change in FG tho.

[malawiglenn]

I agree, there is no argument here. I said it many times, Ravager builds are very specific gimmicky things that are only good Ravager fights. No ravager build can touch Mogdrogen. And most Ravager builds will be slow in Crucible. But because Ravager and Mogdrogen are just tiny tiny parts of the game, while Main Campaign and Crucible are what the game is, and Crucible builds crush Main Campaign, Crucible is an ultimate test.

Personally, I don’t like Crucible, it’s too stressful and tilting for me, but I realise that it’s the standard when I am making a build. It’s gonna change in FG tho.

Crucible is a DLC bought by about 15% of the ones bought GD in total. What you meant is that “Crucible is the game for the 10-15 people who regularly post builds on this forum”. More people have access to Ravagar, Mogdrogen, Lokarr, etc than crucible.

Anyway, you are not English native speaking, but “gimmicky” can be considered “derogative”.

[mad_lee]

Crucible is a DLC bought by about 15% of the ones bought GD in total. What you meant is that “Crucible is the game for the 10-15 people who regularly post builds on this forum”. More people have access to Ravagar, Mogdrogen, Lokarr, etc than crucible.

Anyway, you are not English native speaking, but “gimmicky” can be considered “derogative”.

“Derogative” is when you tell a person who’s been learning English for all his life and lived and studied for few months both in States and UK what “gimmicky” really means.

I just don’t see the point you are trying to make. Yes, it’s a DLC, yes, few people play it. So what? According to steam statistics only 2% or something like that even complete Ultimate, so are we going to measure build’s effectiveness by its Elite clearing timers? It’s obvious that guides that are posted here are made by bunch of nerd-enthusiasts like myself, who just love this game and love to min-max. And all of the builders will agree with me that Ravager’s kill timer is not in any way a measure of build’s greatness, because how can it be if you tailor all your gear/skills/devotions just for one single fight and then not only that but you chug and juggle potions like crazy.

Can you farm Ravager? Not really, you kill him once or twice, get couple of his helmets, and that’s it, you disassemble your ravager build into something else. Can you farm Crucible or Main Campaign? Ofcourse, that’s what you do, you farm them and you build for them.

This is just a silly argument really, I feel like I am repeating very obvious stuff and you are just trying to argue with it for no particular reason other than you don’t like min-maxed crucible builds or something.

[malawiglenn]

“Derogative” is when you tell a person who’s been learning English for all his life and lived and studied for few months both in States and UK what “gimmicky” really means.

I just don’t see the point you are trying to make. Yes, it’s a DLC, yes, few people play it. So what? According to steam statistics only 2% or something like that even complete Ultimate, so are we going to measure build’s effectiveness by its Elite clearing timers? It’s obvious that guides that are posted here are made by bunch of nerd-enthusiasts like myself, who just love this game and love to min-max. And all of the builders will agree with me that Ravager’s kill timer is not in any way a measure of build’s greatness, because how can it be if you tailor all your gear/skills/devotions just for one single fight and then not only that but you chug and juggle potions like crazy.

Can you farm Ravager? Not really, you kill him once or twice, get couple of his helmets, and that’s it, you disassemble your ravager build into something else. Can you farm Crucible or Main Campaign? Ofcourse, that’s what you do, you farm them and you build for them.

This is just a silly argument really, I feel like I am repeating very obvious stuff and you are just trying to argue with it for no particular reason other than you don’t like min-maxed crucible builds or something.

I did not mention farming at all… I just “ask” for more diversity than the regular gladiator stuff. Like I would be very interested in reading about builds that facetanks Kuba in 20 seconds but will suck in gladiator. Or builds that can eat Aleksander’s meteors like milk and cereals but still not go far into crucible

Gonna get this into Port Valbury tomorrow and facetank Aldritch and his two friends (all 3 at once) http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78280 (I am pretty sure it can’t, but it can do crucible in 9 min. C’mon not even overcapped resistances, are one supposed to drink fire res potions in MC?! )

[x1x1x1x2]

@RE procs on Arcane bomb: it’s 48% per projectile, and Re produces 3-5 projectiles per second, which amps tje chance to around 86-96% per second. Not the exact math cause only one bomb can proc per second but I can’t calculate without a calculator I do recognize that this will only be possible in a setup with manticore (+TD+Spear, maybe DG), which brings us to the next topic.

@Manticore setup: this should require a skill point redistribution, mainly using star pact instead of reckless power. With good rolls on items, (idk what your rolls are on cdr) you can get as much as 45% cdr, and accompanied with overcapping Mark of Torment, you could get your Mirror+Mark to around 8.5 seconds, with just around 1 second downtime WITHOUT TD, meaning TD will just be for emergencies. The question now, is the loss of CT dps (from reckless power) worth it? Changing your Devo setup to Manti+TD+Spear+ DG loses you flat aether, % aether (you don’t lose significant CS cause dying god) but you gain cdr (huge dps gain for devastation) and crit damage (dying god). Which one nets you better dps? Idk. No math can answer that cause even if you calculate everything, testing results might say otherwise. Please note this isn’t a “hey, your setup sucks and this is better” thing. It’s more of “have you tried this? Maybe this is better”.

@crucible being technique and skill oriented: LUL, I’d believe you if you were playing defiler but binder? Eh. Seriously it’s only true for low tier to mid tier builds. But for the best builds it’s more about finding the right skill synergy, the comfort of your bindings.

@ravager builds being gimmicky: Honestly I prefer the game being this way. Ravager builds are exclusive for ravager, Mog builds exclusive for Mog, and cruci builds are exclusivr for cruci. But with how easy (relatively) crucible is now, and the fact that it gives you the best farm, then it’s not a surprise that cruci builds are standard. Hopefully realms will fix that. There will surely be a rift between good cruci builds and good realms builds. Realms will most probably be a good farming area so having 2 very good farming sites will hopefully make builds more diverse.

[mad_lee]

I did not mention farming at all… I just “ask” for more diversity than the regular gladiator stuff. Like I would be very interested in reading about builds that facetanks Kuba in 20 seconds but will suck in gladiator. Or builds that can eat Aleksander’s meteors like milk and cereals but still not go far into crucible

Gonna get this into Port Valbury tomorrow and facetank Aldritch and his two friends (all 3 at once) http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78280 (I am pretty sure it can’t, but it can do crucible in 9 min. C’mon not even overcapped resistances, are one supposed to drink fire res potions in MC?! )

Hey, man, most of my builds facetank and decimate foes like Kuba and Alexander, especially Alexander, because his Meteor can’t one shot any of my characters (thus I leech back to full hp before his next meteor). Check out my latest build, for example, aether Defiler: in a Crucible video I catch meteors from TWO Alexanders and it’s not a big deal. Aldritch from Port is a bit of a different animal, some builds facetank him very easily, but a lot of melee builds will naturally struggle to facetank them all the way because one of the couniclman debuffs you with a huge fumble/imaired aim. Here is an example of one my weaker Crucible Gladiators just decimating the trio.

90% of Gladiator builds faceroll Main Campaign content, and it’s a fact. There are also plenty of less Gladiator focused builds in the compendium, thing is, even if you sacrifice some offense to farm Gladiator, you still destroy Main Campaign as fast as most offensive builds. Difference in speed when farming Main Campaign is how fast you can teleport and if your damage needs some time to ramp up, but those things depend on masteries and damage types.

[Witcher]

Why not, as I said, Ravager builds are very gimmicky and work well only versus Ravager.

That’s what I’ve said: in this exact build vs exact target (celestial) you can not just throw away Sacred and replace it with something more powerful - there are just no things which are more powerful (except for Agrivix wisps, yes - but you have to sacrifice WAY too much to kill Ravager in Agrivix, way more than a single weapon component).

If you don’t want to talk about “gimmicky Ravager build”, then probably we have nothing to talk about. Celestials are the only benchmark I find worthy. Geez, everyone and their grandma can complete Crucible (even if it takes 12 min from 150 to 170), but just 0,07% (yes, 7 players out of 10000) have gained Steam achievement for killing Ravager! Note that the achievement is granted for killing it at ANY difficulty (i.e. you can kill normal Ravager with lvl100 char, and gain it)… now imagine the number of players who managed to do it at Absolute! 1 out of 10000 or so, I bet.

Because of how many projectiles RE has, it always procs on one target. You can test it yourself if you don’t believe me.

Just tested on a lone dummy. There were 53 procs per 2 minutes (a proc per 2,26 sec), which is even less than expected (120*0,48 = 58 procs); and indeed there was no 100% debuff uptime (recorded it to make sure). I was recasting Earth once per 3 secs or so (I didn’t care to set up macro for the sake of test, and I can’t manually use abilities once per exactly 3,6-3,8 sec).

Well, for better or for worth Crucible is an ultimate testing platform for builds

So basically you’ve ignored completely the part where I was talking about skill abstraction… Yes, you might complete Crucible faster than me (I’m not surprised - many players do). But, does it mean that your build is better? Not necessarily. It might as well mean than your reflexes are better, that you are better at tactics, at kicking mobs out of corners (so they die together with the rest, not wasting extra of your time), and so on.

I never used any macros, and I did kill Ravager with mymelee Infiltrator. Very far from 100% skill abstraction I should say.

Without macro’s - indeed. While using them - it’s all about your build. That’s why I say it’s the best way to test builds. Also this is the reason why I suggested to create built-in-game macro creating interface in another thread.

And you still kill it way slower than me

Again, my point was that Sacred Strike is borderline useless anywhere but in your specific Ravager build.

It is perfect against any melee boss. The only way to waste hits of Sacred is to fight some caster like Anasteria, who move a lot and try to run from you rather than towards you. Thanks godness, most bosses are melee - Avatar, Lokarr, Clones, Theodin, half of Nemesis, and so on, and so forth…

Not sure what saying it is (I am Russian too),

Не подыхай прежде смерти

but Ishtak is bound to get nerfed, mark my words. It’s a broken mechanic on high cdr builds that let’s a lot of squishy unbalanced builds work just because they have CDR (referring to a lot of Chinese builds that exploit that devotion hard).

There are extremely few builds which can actually have 100% stable tank using Ishtak… I’d say they are just Spellbinder (6s Ishtak + 3s Mirror + 5s Mark) and Reaper (6s Ishtak + 3s Blade Barrier + 5s Mark) who can cover 100% of [30% reduced] cooldown with some kind of absorbs rotation. The rest just rely on luck… sometimes they survive (and then they happily run to youtube to brag about it), but in 95% cases superboss eats them w/o much trouble.

Speaking for myself, I would never play a luck-based build (dodge build etc). And I’m well-feed with my Spellbinder already, so I won’t really cry if they nerf Ishtak… I don’t use it with my other chars anyway (nor plan to). Too long cd, too small uptime. It would have been way better if it gave just some 13% absorb (or rather physical resistance, which is almost as important), but for 100% of its cd. Or maybe 20% absorb for 8 secs of 12, like Tree (it’s more or less easy to gather -33% cd, even without Star Pact). Too bad Tree has such a useless proc…

No ravager build can touch Mogdrogen.

This exact build can touch Avatar. And even kill it. Without even changing much of eq. In case you’ve missed it, the build has 106% Lightning res overcap. Boo.

Crucible is a DLC bought by about 15% of the ones bought GD in total. What you meant is that “Crucible is the game for the 10-15 people who regularly post builds on this forum”. More people have access to Ravagar, Mogdrogen, Lokarr, etc than crucible.

Exactly what I was trying to tell him!

/me raises his hat.

@RE procs on Arcane bomb: it’s 48% per projectile, and Re produces 3-5 projectiles per second, which amps tje chance to around 86-96% per second. Not the exact math cause only one bomb can proc per second but I can’t calculate without a calculator

Then just try it on a lone dummy (at Homestead). I just did.

With good rolls on items, (idk what your rolls are on cdr) you can get as much as 45% cdr, and accompanied with overcapping Mark of Torment, you could get your Mirror+Mark to around 8.5 seconds, with just around 1 second downtime WITHOUT TD, meaning TD will just be for emergencies. The question now, is the loss of CT dps (from reckless power) worth it?

No, it is not, obviously? Look, you can not stack Sacred and Manticore, can you? So all this theorycraft is about getting rid of one component and replacing it with another one. Which one? Wrathstone (+100% Aether)? Not worth the loss of Reckless alone…

but you gain cdr (huge dps gain for devastation) and crit damage (dying god). Which one nets you better dps? Idk.

I do. No, it does not. The best kill I’ve seen with Spear + TD + DG was 3:35… while my one is 2:57. And I’ve even said why (in the start post): too much sacrifices to buff Devastation… and the latter misses 60% of its meteors when you have to fight a lone enemy. That’s why it’s better to survive due to Ishtak, get RR from Sacred and damage with Reckless.

@crucible being technique and skill oriented: LUL, I’d believe you if you were playing defiler but binder? Eh. Seriously it’s only true for low tier to mid tier builds. But for the best builds it’s more about finding the right skill synergy, the comfort of your bindings.

Lol, no - I’ve been playing with real items and was doing real tests. Though, I’ve seen examples like this: I find some way to improve my dps by 18% (say, add another RR item)… but my total 150-170 time gets reduced by just 7s (1,5%). Moveover: I’ve seen people having builds worse than mine (less hp, less mana, way less flat damage, way less %aether, just a bit more OA) which complete Crucible faster than me. Why? Because of player skills, not build, obviously.

[veretragna]

Lone dummy is bad target for RE. Dummy is very small after all. RE shotgun procs instantly on big targets like Ravager and it’s superior proc machine in crowds of enemies.

Geez, everyone and their grandma can complete Crucible

Loool, no.

[mad_lee]

We are indeed not going to find a middle a ground here if you keep saying that Ravager is the ultimate achievement for any build. Especially if you keep ignoring the fact that Ravager builds are only good against Ravager and Ravager can’t be farmed, it’s a one time thing (I am not sure you can take Mogdrogen with the exact same spec, surely you will need to change some stuff, like 25% stun res for example, or boost other resists so you don’t get shredded by mog’s beasts).

You also keep saying that Crucible builds rely on player skill too much, which is just just partly true, yet your own Ravager build is laced with macros and relies on rotation of like ten potions. What kind of achievement is that? I really don’t care about my own Ravager kill, but at least I did it with a melee build that has no mirror or mot or ishtak or crazy cooldown reduction (and I still don’t consider it an achievement). You took the most powerful class combo and the most powerful set, injected it with tonns of macros, put like 7 potions on rotation and killed a one time boss, great, well done, if that’s an achievement in your book, it’s sure as hell isn’t a measure of build’s worth for all the builders on this forum. Especially when you are doing it with a cookie cutter class/set.

And all other melee bosses are melted in seconds by much more efficient specs than Ravager spec.

Anyway, good luck farming Ravager.

[malawiglenn]

we need more bot builds so that we can 100% factor out any human component! Remove the A from ARPG so to say xD

[veretragna]

ZPG. Zero-player game. Like a Godville, but with 3D graphics :excited:

[malawiglenn]

ZPG. Zero-player game. Like a Godville, but with 3D graphics :excited:

not as bad idea as Diablo Mobile-phony game! xD

[veretragna]

not as bad idea as Diablo Mobile-phony game! xD

/ charges internal volcano like Gargabol /
Mobile Diablo :furious:

[mad_lee]

There is an “ARPG” in text format that plays itself, it’s old and I forgot what it’s called. Ah, found it, Progressquest!

[veretragna]

There is an “ARPG” in text format that plays itself, it’s old and I forgot what it’s called. Ah, found it, Progressquest!

if you are interested in such game, I still recommend Godville. Its level of design and joy is superior to Progressquest. My char is almost 4 years old there