[1.0.6.1] Spellbinder, Bane of Celestials

[Witcher]

Lone dummy is bad target for RE. Dummy is very small after all. RE shotgun procs instantly on big targets like Ravager

Ravager has just a big model, but its radius is 0,7 (dummy has 0,5). Not that much of difference.

Now take into account this fact: my full combat cycle against Ravager is 13,5s. It includes 4 Sacreds (350ms each), 2 Haunts (250ms each), 2 Siphons (250ms each), 3 Ill Omens (250ms each), Devastation (300ms), Mirror (250ms) and Mark (250ms). The rest is filled with Callidor (250ms each). I.e. almost 4s are occupied with support spells, while the rest 9,5s let me cast 38 Callidors. In case you replace Ill Omen with Earth, you not just lose 3 skill points, but you will have to cast it 4 times - i.e. you lose one extra Callidor, or 1/38 (2,6%) dps. Does it really worth 5% increase of a single RR uptime? I don’t think so. Widow is, roughly, +35% dps; 5% of it is just 1,75% dps.

Loool, no.

I was playing less than month (well, 10-12 hours a day, but still) when I’ve completed Crucible 170 for the first time… but it required 50 days to kill Ravager (the first kill took 5:44 min, hehe). Tell me about relative difficulty

We are indeed not going to find a middle a ground here if you keep saying that Ravager is the ultimate achievement for any build.

Then let’s just stop this discussion - it’s pointless.

(I am not sure you can take Mogdrogen with the exact same spec, surely you will need to change some stuff, like 25% stun res for example, or boost other resists so you don’t get shredded by mog’s beasts).

Yes I’ll replace boots with another instance of Stoneplate Greaves (I’ve created several hundreds of them, about 30 of which had decent green+yellow affixes, stun resist including) - so I can replace them anytime. Summoned mobs can simply be ignored - they don’t do any real damage (taking into account my absorbs and life leech). Geez, are you doing to tell me that Avatar + his summons together do more dps than Ravager? Lol.

What kind of achievement is that?

An achievement of killing Ravager, obviously? Everyone does it differently, everyone uses his strong sides. You strong side is reflexes, mine - build construction and scripting. What does make you think that your strong sides are better than mine?

at least I did it with a melee build that has no mirror or mot or ishtak or crazy cooldown reduction (and I still don’t consider it an achievement).

Fine, then take your best char, throw in any potions you find suitable, use your insane skills to compensate lack of macro, and kill Ravager faster than me. You do too much of talking, but too little of real demonstration of power.

Remove the A from ARPG so to say xD

YES! Yes, please, please, remove it, remove it for good! I’m sooooooooooooo tired of “A” in CRPG genre names… and I really really filled with nostalgia for good old turn-based pure RPGs where your reflexes meant NOTHING, while building your character(s) was everything!

[malawiglenn]

YES! Yes, please, please, remove it, remove it for good! I’m sooooooooooooo tired of “A” in CRPG genre names… and I really really filled with nostalgia for good old turn-based pure RPGs where your reflexes meant NOTHING, while building your character(s) was everything!

There are already pure RPG games out there, Grim Dawn is designed to be played by a human…

[x1x1x1x2]

Fine, then take your best char, throw in any potions you find suitable, use your insane skills to compensate lack of macro, and kill Ravager faster than me. You do too much of talking, but too little of real demonstration of power.

YES! Yes, please, please, remove it, remove it for good! I’m sooooooooooooo tired of “A” in CRPG genre names… and I really really filled with nostalgia for good old turn-based pure RPGs where your reflexes meant NOTHING, while building your character(s) was everything!

I only found out about the macro thing just now. So i’ll just say this directly. I can respect macro players and I don’t think there’s anything wrong in using macro in your own game since this is singleplayer. But please do understand that while it is not illegal here in the forums to do that, there will always be a stigma towards anyone that does things that’s outside the natural boundaries of the game, be it macros or GDstash. I’m talking about this as a GDstasher myself. We all have excuses. I cheat my items cause it’s a chore sorting through mules to search for every item I have and some builds look fun with impossible greens. Your excuse for macro is that you don’t want your personal skill to affect your gameplay and you want the builds you make to exhibit it’s maximum potential. I get that, but please refrain from saying things like:

Fine, then take your best char, throw in any potions you find suitable, use your insane skills to compensate lack of macro, and kill Ravager faster than me. You do too much of talking, but too little of real demonstration of power.

Not only do you seem like you think you’re better just because you have some 3rd party tools in your arsenal, what you’re saying is also flat out wrong in the context of this game. What you showed us (the ravager video) isn’t a “real” demonstration of power in the sense that the person playing it isn’t even a human.

If you want your pure calculation skills to be the only deciding factor in a game, then fine, but don’t talk like it should be an absolute rule. More suitable games for your type of player maybe Pokemon (even then it has RNG) or maybe even Chess (well you’re Russian so you’re probably already good at this). Grim Dawn has the player skill element and you can’t just ignore that and preach about macro without being able to take criticisms.

Before this strikes to anyone reading this (especially new users and to you Witcher, who’s also enew here) as “THE GD COMMUNITY SO TOXIC ROASTING ONE GUY JUST FOR POSTING A BUILD BLAH BLAH BLAH”. I don’t mean this to be looked at that way so please don’t misunderstand. All of these things here, starting from me and mad_lee’s suggestions that escalated to this kind of “FIGHT ME” situation are just what the result of different personalities having differing opinions that are cramped into one thread. No one is intending to be toxic here and we don’t want this place to be toxic.

@the manticore suggestion: I won’t talk about this anymore cause I didn’t know about the macro thing back then. Considering perfect play, you won’t even think of “Oh shit!” situations with a macro, which was what the manticore suggestion was really aimed for - having a TD button in case shit happens. This is irrelevant now so I’ll just stop the discussion.

[veretragna]

Ravager has just a big model, but its radius is 0,7 (dummy has 0,5). Not that much of difference.

S = пr^2
S = 3.140.250.25 = ~0.2
S = 3.140.350.35 = ~0.39

Indeed - told you, math is my preferred language!

Yes, indeed

I was playing less than month (well, 10-12 hours a day, but still) when I’ve completed Crucible 170 for the first time… but it required 50 days to kill Ravager (the first kill took 5:44 min, hehe). Tell me about relative difficulty

Ravager is different challenge than Crucible. Many dedicated Ravager builds are focused on defense.

[malawiglenn]

S = пr^2
S = 3.140.250.25 = ~0.2
S = 3.140.350.35 = ~0.39

Because 1/sqrt(2) = 0,707… we actually have an approximately double circular area going from 0,5 to 0,7 xD

btw if RADIUS is 0.5, then you should not divide that number by 2 in the surface formula

[veretragna]

Because 1/sqrt(2) = 0,707… we actually have an approximately double circular area going from 0,5 to 0,7 xD

btw if RADIUS is 0.5, then you should not divide that number by 2 in the surface formula

I’m not that strong in maths
Radius, right.
S(0,7) = 1.55
S(0.5) = 0.79

Nearly the same.

[malawiglenn]

I’m not that strong in maths
Radius, right.
S(0,7) = 1.55
S(0.5) = 0.79

Nearly the same.

Ratio is of course invariant under global scale transformations! “nearly” means that you did not include all digits in the answer

[Witcher]

There are already pure RPG games out there, Grim Dawn is designed to be played by a human…

I’m human, and I play it, using abilities I’ve trained (ability to set up scripts, for example). You can as well play it action-style, using such abilities as reflexes - what’s wrong with it? Or maybe you just want everyone play it the way YOU like it?

Not only do you seem like you think you’re better just because you have some 3rd party tools in your arsenal, what you’re saying is also flat out wrong in the context of this game. What you showed us (the ravager video) isn’t a “real” demonstration of power in the sense that the person playing it isn’t even a human.

You didn’t get it at all. I’ve never said I am better player than you or mad_lee. What I’ve said (and what I can repeat) is that MY BUILD (at least, the anti-ravager one) is better than any other Arcanist build assembled at this moment. It does not quite matter how do you play it - manually or using any enchantments.

(well you’re Russian so you’re probably already good at this)

Not good enough %) I still lose to Kasparov, even tho he plays a game of multiboard chess against 20+ opponents or so. Well, everyone does, AFAIK :o

Grim Dawn has the player skill element and you can’t just ignore that and preach about macro without being able to take criticisms.

You seem to miss my point, still. Someone else’s skill is USELESS to you. Let’s say you have found a video where someone uses some crap build, but has insane reflexes (every second Chinese video, for example), so he achieves some goal better than everyone else. Does it help you? NO, because you can’t just take his build and (at least) repeat this achievement (let alone improve it). Now you have this topic, and my build - an absolutely optimized build. You CAN take it and repeat (or even improve) this achievement, given that you’ve got enough skill. So yes, I think my topic is more useful for community than topics made by “players with skill element”.

All of these things here, starting from me and mad_lee’s suggestions that escalated to this kind of “FIGHT ME” situation are just what the result of different personalities having differing opinions that are cramped into one thread.

Yep, I’ve realized this, long ago at other forums… that’s why I suggested mad_lee to stop fighting about it - our goals and preferred build benchmarks just differ too much.

which was what the manticore suggestion was really aimed for - having a TD button in case shit happens.

Ughhhm… now I miss your point. “TD button”? From what I know, the biggest problem with TD is that it’s not a button to press when shit happens - it’s a proc which can hit when you don’t really need it, and then be on cd when shit actually happens. That’s why I dropped it and decided to optimize Ishtak build instead.

S = пr^2
S = 3.140.250.25 = ~0.2
S = 3.140.350.35 = ~0.39

It’s not about “hit or miss”, as you can see. When I aim at primary target, it just always hits, no matter of radius (target always takes damage - you can see that on video). It’s about “procs or no”. So “Yes, indeed” - it is about math. 48% is not 100%, do you understand it? Sometimes it just hits but does not proc… and repeats it for several seconds. Though, the weirdest part is that sometimes it hits, it actually PROCS (i.e. you see a big green puff), but it does not affect target with RR (cyan-colored rune-like sign), dunno why.

Ravager is different challenge than Crucible. Many dedicated Ravager builds are focused on defense.

Yes indeed - did I ever object this? It’s different, it requires lots of defense, many classes simply fail to gather that much defense - that’s why I like to seek for builds which actually can do it. If you prefer to seek for the best Crucible build instead - how can I stop you? As I’ve said in the very beginning, my arena build is not even close to the best… it’s just variation of my main build for going to arena, and it’s good enough for it IMHO, as it allows you to reach the main goal: complete 3 runs before blessings wear off. Yes I know there are builds which can complete 4 runs - but, from what I see, these are veeeery risky builds… you can’t farm arena like this on permanent basis, can you?

[malawiglenn]

But to be fair Witcher, a build played by a bot is even worse than to show “this is what I, with my playing skills, can do with this build”

What you do with bots, is that you instead shift the focus to how well a person can script a bot.

[thejabrixone]

If you bind TD to long CD skill like trap spirit or transmuted CT or horn of gandarr, you can get 100% chance of activating that TD procs. Thus, TD button…

BTW, I am quite surprised on a lot of Russian player in this forum

Also guys, please stop attacking someone for their preference to play a game. For me personally, if they don’t modify their character by giving too many skill points or devo points or attribute points, or adding prefix/suffix to legendary items, then it should be fine.

I haven’t kill ravager or mogdrogen yet and the build thread is full of crucible build or beginner friendly build, so it’s nice to see a thread focusing to kill super bosses.

Sent from my Redmi Note 3 using Tapatalk

[Witcher]

But to be fair Witcher, a build played by a bot is even worse than to show “this is what I, with my playing skills, can do with this build”

It was not a bot. A real bot would require injection at DirectX level, it would require to read data from the game memory and use abilities without even pressing any buttons - just by calling corresponding engine funcs. I didn’t care to dig into GD libs, but something tells me that with a real bot made I would have even been able to use any skills I want with any class (say, make a Inquisitor with Devastation, Mirror and Mark, and kill Ravager in less than 1 min), or even construct abilities “on the fly” (i.e. just come and oneshoot it with some 1kkk “death bolt”).

What I did is several simple macro’s like “send, 9; sleep 1100; send, 0; sleep 1050; send, y; sleep, 50; send, 0; sleep, 50; send, y” to drink 3 potions with a single key pressed (one of them from the secondary panel). Macro can’t press buttons by itself (without human interference at all), as you can’t set up triggers (once again, you need either image recognition for that, or injection with aim to read game data) - so it does not even enhance my reactions. And YES shit happens even to a macro user playing a pretty much stable build - sometimes Ishtak just does not proc for 3 secs after both Mirror and Mark are off already (i.e. on cd), I drink red potion (manually, yes), but it does not save for long, and I die anyway. The only thing macro lets me do is to use abilities with exactly preset delays, so a) they don’t overlap, and b) I don’t have to ever move my left hand from 1-2-3-4 to the right (as the rest buttons are “pressed” by macro’s).

[veretragna]

It’s not about “hit or miss”, as you can see. When I aim at primary target, it just always hits, no matter of radius (target always takes damage - you can see that on video). It’s about “procs or no”. So “Yes, indeed” - it is about math. 48% is not 100%, do you understand it? Sometimes it just hits but does not proc… and repeats it for several seconds. Though, the weirdest part is that sometimes it hits, it actually PROCS (i.e. you see a big green puff), but it does not affect target with RR (cyan-colored rune-like sign), dunno why.

“So “Yes, indeed” - it is about math.”
Of course. You say 0.5 and 0.7 is not much difference, in fact it’s twice as different. Large targets are easily shotgunned with multiple projectiles of RE.

So, you say RE is bad in proccing Widow. I say it’s good.
3-5 projectiles hitting 1 target with 48% chance is nearly 100% hit chance once per second. RE shoots its projectiles during 4 seconds. Widow debuff lasts for 5 seconds. It’s impossible to not proc in such conditions.
Ok, let’s assume that only one projectile hits the enemy at once if this target is small.
4 projectiles with 48% chance is still close to 100%.
Not mentioning that RE CD is 3 seconds, which means 2 active RE spots for a short time.

[Witcher]

If you bind TD to long CD skill like trap spirit or transmuted CT or horn of gandarr, you can get 100% chance of activating that TD procs. Thus, TD button…

o_O … you are good at going weird ways Didn’t think about it before… looks like too much sacrifices just to create a “safe button”, hehe.

BTW, I am quite surprised on a lot of Russian player in this forum

Well, you know… fallometry is Russian national sport :o and GD provides just a PERFECT platform for it. I mean, really, in most games all bosses are killable by a 12 y.o. casual player - what’s to measure there? Nuttin Now, we have a game with celestials killable by 0,07% of playerbase… no wonders it attracts a bunch of Russians!

[Witcher]

So, you say RE is bad in proccing Widow. I say it’s good.

I don’t. I just say it’s not good enough to waste 3 more skill points AND to waste every 38th Callidor from my attack cycle.

3-5 projectiles hitting 1 target with 48% chance is nearly 100% hit chance once per second. RE shoots its projectiles during 4 seconds. Widow debuff lasts for 5 seconds. It’s impossible to not proc in such conditions.

Try it. Just go to Homestead, aim at lone dummy, start recording video and press it every 3 secs… then watch the video and you realize that cyan rune is not 100% present (as expected).

Not mentioning that RE CD is 3 seconds, which means 2 active RE spots for a short time.

Whaaat? You want to spam it as soon as its cd wears off? I.e. to waste even MORE Callidors?

[malawiglenn]

I don’t. I just say it’s not good enough to waste 3 more skill points AND to waste every 38th Callidor from my attack cycle.

Try it. Just go to Homestead, aim at lone dummy, start recording video and press it every 3 secs… then watch the video and you realize that cyan rune is not 100% present (as expected).

Whaaat? You want to spam it as soon as its cd wears off? I.e. to waste even MORE Callidors?

Ravenous Earth just require 1 skill point?

[veretragna]

Try it. Just go to Homestead, aim at lone dummy, start recording video and press it every 3 secs… then watch the video and you realize that cyan rune is not 100% present (as expected).

Forget dummy. Ravager’s model is twice as larger than dummy.

[Witcher]

Ravenous Earth just require 1 skill point?

It also requires a quickslot. As you can see on my video, ALL quickslots are used (I even have to use a quickslot from secondary panel). So, basically, to use Earth you have to drop Ill Omen (10 points) and put 1 point into Earth + 12 into Decay.

Forget dummy. Ravager’s model is twice as larger than dummy.

Then take my build, replace Ill Omen with Earth and kill Ravager faster than me. Geez, like I haven’t tried it… I have even tried to create a mod which changes Ravager’s radius and scale (didn’t help at all)! Why do you think I’ve started my video from the main menu? To show that this is the “vanilla” campaign, not some mod.

[veretragna]

Then take my build, replace Ill Omen with Earth and kill Ravager faster than me. Geez, like I haven’t tried it… I have even tried to create a mod which changes Ravager’s radius and scale (didn’t help at all)! Why do you think I’ve started my video from the main menu? To show that this is the “vanilla” campaign, not some mod.

Va banque, huh?
Send me your char’s folder via PM please, I’ll test it and report a feedback in this thread.

[Witcher]

Send me your char’s folder via PM please, I’ll test it and report a feedback in this thread.

Ughh, that’s a bit too much It’s not like I’ve been farming arena for a month just to share all my decent stuff for nothing, hehehe. GD is a game of farm to a great degree, after all (much like every Diablo clone)!

[malawiglenn]

Ughh, that’s a bit too much It’s not like I’ve been farming arena for a month just to share all my decent stuff for nothing, hehehe. GD is a game of farm to a great degree, after all (much like every Diablo clone)!

Its not like veretragna have all those items xD even I have them