Threads merged since there’s no need for two separate ones on the same subject by the same author.
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Thanks, & sorry for spamming – I’m still a bit of a forum newbie 
Jesus, people, I’m not trying to walk over builds here and nerf-stomp them into the ground! All I want is balance. A Cyclone set that still does Crucible in 6:30, beats high shards & is a ton of fun to play (I really love the playstyle).
So I’m being a little self-critical in regards to the builds I play/sets I use. And when I find something that I feel is not quite balanced (and, yes, this feeling might coincide with that of Zantai & Co. a little more than with others), I try to think of a way to change it. Then – if I can – I try to actually test the changes I thought of. To see if they are, in fact, reasonable or not. Because I’m pretty sure that, as much as they might want to, the people balancing this game really don’t have the time do that with every single build/item.
And that thinking is not just limited to nerfs. I mean, I made a similarly big thread about how the Harra’s Artifice set needs to be buffed, too; because, apart from the odd Spellbreaker, no class can really beat anything with it (at least anything end-game related).
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But before I really start shouting here, maybe we can get back to some actual reasoning.
I only tested Cyclone EoR & followed a few build threads on EoR stuff, but I’m pretty sure the skill itself is fairly balanced right now. The reason Cyclone is a little broken is because of something/everything else coming with it here; and I stand by the viewpoint that nerfing damage conversion might be a viable way to counteract this fact.
Chiming in, I am still of the opinion that if a set overperforms, nerf the set instead of touching the skills themselves because otherwise you’d be nerfing something for every single build just because 1 out of many showed better performance than intended due to a particular set of items.
If a set is overperforming, the set is the problem. Unless the skill or mechanic does the same with any supporting items or sets.
Personally I would also like people of multiple skill levels to play test a particular “overpowered” build to see how it fares in the hands of different people. A few skilled pilots making times that most of the community cannot even hope to get close to should not be the measurement imo. But again, as I said that is a personal thing. And some builds requiring high skill requirements to play might be fine.
On the topic of what on the set needs to be nerfed, I will leave it to you guys and Zantai. But if there are any modders here, perhaps you can try to tweak certain things on your own and then test their performance and see if it works out.
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And because of the latter, I’d love to get some input on how many other builds using e.g. Thermite Mines are – or are not – overperforming after their 1.1.4.0 change. Because if it actually isn’t because of the set that this build is broken, then nerfing it and, inevitably (at some point in the future) the skill, as well, then Cyclone might in truth become too weak (as others in this thread have been concerned about).
In general, though, I completely agree with the first part of your statement. Grim Dawn is such a complex and interwoven thing by now that, if something has to get nerfed, the most isolated part of the corresponding build is the one that should be altered. And that’s usually a set.
Oh, man, that would be awesome. If I had the time (and I’d need a f**kin’ ton of it for a task like this), I think I’d actuall get into modding myself for this…
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This, this and this.
Not everyone learns and study how to kill as ast as possible each single wave. And that’s ok.
My markovian warlord does 130-150 in 10mins, and that’s fine.
Do people run 150-170 faster than my 130-150?
Sure
but should it get nerfed?
No.
Same should be with most builds.
Only experienced and skilled players post record time, not the commun Joe.
I kind of agree with this.
What does Zantai/Crate say about it, though? Maybe they are actually already accounting for this skill/clear speed spectrum with their mark of Crucible 6:30 builds as being the ideal. After all, if we consider the ability to clear 3 runs of 170 with 3buffs/1banner (to always get your 100 tributes back) to be the defining achievement of a good build. managing 8min runs would still be very much fast enough. So if they only went after the fastest cleaners out there, nerfing anything below that threshhold might be just as reasonable.
The opposing argument to what I’m saying would likely be more in the lines of what was suggested by e.g.
or Aikimox over in his thread: to just stop nerfing stuff for a while and leave some this as they are, whether they may be OP or not (that is, if I understand them correctly here).
Which is a ligitimate position to take! I’m just not sure the ones balancing this game will ever join it.
And I’m also not sure I, personally, would, either. Because that would either mean that there is no more balancing at all – & everything that is bad right now just gets abandoned – or that all balancing would have to be done solely via buffs, which would likely lead to some very ridiculous power creep very fast.
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I made such experiment with my warlock
Usually it’s 1-1:30m longer
Having done this exclusively for substantial feedback, I can say one thing: as nice as it sounds, it’s a time-ineffective way to go about it. Even if you test things out, you can only provide the limited perspective of a single player: unpopular builds won’t really get focus-tested just because a test mod is available, and I doubt people who favor high or over-performing builds will be eager to experiment with nerfs. Since feedback is mostly one-way, you also have no guarantee that the developers will be interested in revising the specific set/items at the time of your posting, or that your changes fit their own direction.
By the way
I have an experimental bi-elemental purifier. 2500% fire and 2700% lightning with mines, canister and two pieces of Cyclone
It’s about 6m. Prob could be faster if I sacrifice some tankyness, but I like reliability
True, in the end, it is all in the hands of 
antai
From my experience EoR is fine, not weak but not super good either. It’s in a pretty balanced state right now. If anything the disparity between different EoR versions is too high. For example chaos, vitality, pierce and aether lack behind fire, lightning and even phys quite a bit. Bleed EoR comes with a different playstyle, so it’s a little harder to compare that one, but it’s certainly not amazing right now.
So if crate decides to buff/nerf EoR again, they shouldn’t touch the skill, but rather the item mods on the relevant items imo.
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…and/or the supporting skills of the respecitve OP build 
As I said before, even with Cyclone/Cindertouch mods to lightning EoR, a heavily EoR-focused spec is more on the verge of underperforming rather than overperforming in my experience (though mad_lee’s fire EoR-focused Paladin seems strong with Justiciar gear & Inquisitor awesomeness).
But I think that’s how it pretty much should be with Cyclone, since the set promotes more than just EoR for damage.
So I definitely agree with your statement that EoR itself as a skill is pretty fine and shouldn’t be touched atm.
Physical and lightning EOR are the only ones that does most endgame contents consistently. Other EORs are so pathetic they never get anywhere.
Yup. But I have to say physical and fire are not overpowered, but most of the damage types are lackluster.
After all fire have the most synergy and OK have fire RR. Physical can count on RR and Warborn set. Cyclone is crazy good no matter in what version.
Vitality just have one 2h weapon without attack speed. Chaos isn’t much better. Aether looks decent on paper, but in reality is anti synergetic. Cold and Acid should be decent, but not strong. Bleeding is just awkward.
So if you want to do something, don’t decrease the damage of the skill, but change the skill modifiers.
Agree, non physical/fire/lightning EoR needs a small buff if anything.
I don’t even think that you’d need to touch the EoR modifiers on Cyclone much/at all, either.
I’d probably do one of two things:
- If Thermite Mines by themselves are fine as an individual skill, just reduce some of the flat damage bonuses to skills on the set & the RR to Thermite Mines by a few more %, or
- If the Mines are too strong after their 1.1.4.0 buff, reduce only their %RR by just a little bit both on the skill and the set (shouting here so nobody crucifies me on the spot).
Unfortunately, I don’t really have the time right now to test how the Mines perform across the board; I will, however, try to test at least a Cyclone Archon over the next few days to see how much of the power seen in Cyclone builds atm might actually be attributed to the Demolitionists’ part in the equation.
All right, I just tested the 1.1.4.1 Cyclone Archon. It does sub 6min runs, too (~6:15 av.).
Whilst it was a little bit slower than my Shieldbreaker, this might just come down to me not being fully adjusted to the Archon’s crazy piano playstyle/the build not being as optimised yet. Thus, this might suggest that it is, in fact, the Cyclone set – and not a specific skill – that should be nerfed a little.
Or just nerf Wind Devils again 
In case anyone is interested: the Archon setup I tested with included fully supported Wind devils and Storm Totem on 23/16, as well as an Aeon’s (->Permascension with Conduit)/Spear/DG/Revenant devo route (no Ultos, no Crown). GT won’t let me upload from a save file atm, unfortunately.
help me Chton Imma shoot your pet turtle
It was a joke! It was joke! 
Please don’t shoot my turtle!
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