[1.1.4.2] Pure Vitality Oblivion Spamlord/RE leechtank Oppressor. Crucible 5:54. SR+

[sir_spanksalot]

Putting it altogether, we can work through your build as an example.

Assume again that you have 100 fire damage.

• Belt: 50% ele --> vit
• Offhand: 60% fire --> vit (I’m assuming yours is BiS’d rolled)
• PoT3: Fuck it, let’s assume 50% fire --> acid

So right off the bat…

1. Ele conversion occurs first. Boom - 50 vit damage and 50 fire damage.
2. Enter the marbles - 50 + 60 = 110 < – this is your total weighted pool, which means…
   2a. 50 / 110 = 45.5% of your fire damage gets converted to acid
   2b. 60 / 110 = 54.5% of your fire damage gets converted to vit

As you can see, this results in a loss of 5.5% fire/vit conversion.

EDIT: What this goes to show is that raw %vit damage is responsible for most of your DPS. Not casting speed, not cool down.

While I’m sure there’s an optimal balance between these 3 things, what your testing has demonstrated is that you’ve hit the point where you just need to focus on sheer firepower.

[sir_spanksalot]

This is also why that fire/vit chest piece you had originally increases your DPS.

TBH, you might be better off sticking to that, and using that lunal’valgoth necro belt for chaos/vit conversion.

EDIT: Am I even making sense, or is my marble analogy an indicator of me having lost my…marbles

Buh-dum-tsss

As you can see, this results in a loss of 5.5% fire/vit conversion.

^To clarify…

45.5% of your remaining 50 fire damage gets converted to acid
54.5% of your remaining 50 fire damage gets converted to vitality.

[Cinder]

Assume that I have:

• 100 fire damage
• 50% ele --> vit conversion (call this “a”)
• 50% fire --> vit conversion (call this “b”)

Step A will first convert 50% of my 100 fire damage to vit. So I’ll have 50 fire, and 50 vit.
Step B will then occur separately and independently to step A. This means that 50% of my remaining 50 fire damage gets converted to vit.

Ultimately, this translates to a net total of 75 fire damage, and 25 vit.

So in this equation, step A & B don’t just occur separately, but also consecutively, right?

• Belt: 50% ele --> vit
• Offhand: 60% fire --> vit (I’m assuming yours is BiS’d rolled)

It’s actually the other way around! ‘desparately tries to get any amount of authority back’

And because it’s the other way around – and 54% fire>vit (off-hand)+46%fire>acid (PoT) don’t actually supercede 100%, this still feels kinda wrong, doesn’t it?

5.5% dmg loss sounds way too little, anyways (fire dmg is really just added to RE via skill mods = is lower than base dmg; and I lost at least 10% with PoT according to my tooltip).

Doesn’t hammys scenario of ele+fire>vit competing with fire>acid as one single block sound more likely, here? In that case I should lose about 15% fire>vit, right? (since the ratio of vit/X dmg, as converted from fire, would go from 7.5/2.5 to 6/4)

I might just be stupid here, though. I have kind of a history with that when math is involved

@hammyhamster1 btw., tooltip values don’t change for me, no matter in which order I equip belt (58% conversion) & off-hand (52%)… maybe they fixed it?

While I’m sure there’s an optimal balance between these 3 things, what your testing has demonstrated is that you’ve hit the point where you just need to focus on sheer firepower.

This is definitely true, however; as shown by Darkflame setup

[sir_spanksalot]

Before we continue down the rabbit hole of conversions, can I trouble you to lay out all your conversion values, and their respective sources in a list?

[Cinder]

Before we continue down the rabbit hole of conversions, can I trouble you to lay out all your conversion values, and their respective sources in a list?

Sure thing

• Belt: 58% ele>vit
• Off-Hand: 52% fire>vit
• PoT: 46% fire>acid

[sir_spanksalot]

One last thing, and perhaps I should have included this in my above reply…but what do you mean by:

It’s actually the other way around

EDIT: Nevermind, I just figured it out. Uh…yeah. I believe hammyhamster is right. IIRC, he (or she) was the one who told me about the weird ‘conversions are affected by the items you equip first’

An easy way to test this is to unequip your offhand + belt, turn on pot3, and then see if the order in which you equip them screws with your damage values.

^I’m kinda curious about this, too.

[Cinder]

I meant that – if you want to work with round numbers – the belt is the one with 60% conversion, whilst the off-hand is the one with 50%; therefore the latter would, in fact, even out to 100% total with PoT, and not to 110% as in your post (which only then should ensue a weighted contest, right?).

Sorry for being unclear

[sir_spanksalot]

I meant that – if you want to work with round numbers – the belt is the one with 60% conversion, whilst the off-hand is the one with 50%; therefore the latter would, in fact, even out to 100% total with PoT, and not to 110% as in your post (which only then should ensue a weighted contest, right?).

Hmm…let me think about this while I crap. The toilet is where I do some of my best thinking.

[Cinder]

An easy way to test this is to unequip your offhand + belt, turn on pot3, and then see if the order in which you equip them screws with your damage values.

It doesn’t.

Maybe it’s a source-of-conversion kind of thing instead – since the 7j5% are equipment-based & the other 50% come from a skill? That sounds weird, though…

It should all just be global conversion, right?

Hmm…let me think about this while I crap. The toilet is where I do some of my best thinking.

[sir_spanksalot]

Right. Ok. That makes sense to me.

The only logical conclusion I can come to is that flat vit damage from HoS combined with oblivion spam is the reason why you’re out-dpsing the PoT3 version.

12% CDR on a 2.5s CD on RE = ~ 2.2s downtime.

However, note the mechanics of RE itself:

1. It takes 1s for it to actually fully deploy and start dealing damage
2. It fires once every second.

^This I can say with quite a bit of certainty because I love RE, and have tested it many times.

Perhaps the CD from PoT3 is too little to actually justify the uptime of double RE by if you are forced to trade of raw vit damage from oblivion spam.

Darkflame here is a DPS increase because it’ll translate to higher vit/fire conversion.

So…all in all:

• Biggest source of damage here is converting RE’s fire damage to vit, not stacking CDR
• 2nd biggest source of damage is stacking raw vit damage &/or casting speed for better oblivion support

EDIT: raw vit damage also better benefits your procs, which should be doing quite a bit of work.

2nd EDIT: That being said, CDR benefits procs as well. So yeah. Seems like this is an open-&-shut case of damage > CDR.

[Cinder]

The only logical conclusion I can come to is that flat vit damage from HoS combined with oblivion spam is the reason why you’re out-dpsing the PoT3 version.

So… which conversion theory do you follow here, again?

[sir_spanksalot]

since the 7j5% are equipment-based & the other 50% come from a skill? That sounds weird, though…

It should all just be global conversion, right?

Barring the weird interaction between elemental and each individual elemental damage type, all conversion values occuring outside that of a ‘transmutor’-level-operator will enter a weighted pool

[sir_spanksalot]

IMO…BIS’d would be:
offhand + darkflame chest piece + your current belt + valguur’s glove

But you’d need a +2 to RE rolled on your medal which means either a ‘defiler’s’ or an ‘oppressor’s’ prefix.

EDIT: even if you kept the dark one’s glove and went for lunal’valgoth’s necro belt + dark flame chest, you should theoratically get a better fire/vit conversion.

Scenario 1: Dark flame (35% conversion) + offhand (54% conversion) = 89% fire/vit conversion assuming best rolls
Scenario 2: Your current belt (60% conversion) + offhand (54% conversion) = total of 81.6% conversion

2nd edit: you’ll also get a better chaos/vit conversion value

[Cinder]

all conversion values occuring outside that of a ‘transmutor’-level-operator will enter a weighted pool

Um… can you do the child-explaney thing again with this one, pls?

Or just quickly math it out for me so I can follow this properly…

Do the 3 conversion values we have with PoT just get thrown into one big pool & weighed accordingly?

Because ele>X conversion still messes with that somewhere, right? But where & how?

IMO…BIS’d would be:
offhand + darkflame chest piece + your current belt + valguur’s glove

But you’d need a +2 to RE rolled on your medal which means either a ‘defiler’s’ or an ‘oppressor’s’ prefix.

Well, I have a Defiler’s Basiliks Fang with +2 to BWC – will that one do, too?

Scenario 1: Dark flame (35% conversion) + offhand (54% conversion) = 89% fire/vit conversion assuming best rolls
Scenario 2: Your current belt (60% conversion) + offhand (54% conversion) = total of 81.6% conversion

That is an interesting point! I’ll have to test that…

Edit: man, throwing out that pesky occ. lunal’ belt with its annoying ass conversion mess sounds bloody awesome right about now – simply to cool down my head a little…

But isn’t chaos>vit already at 100% with weapon+hood+chest atm?

[sir_spanksalot]

can you do the child-explaney thing again with this one, pls?

Right. Think of the order of conversions as kids, and marbles the object they want.

The biggest kid gets to have first pick of the prettiest marble because he can muscle his way to the front of the line.

Kids of equal size pick at the same time, and will share things equally.

So…Transmutor-level conversions are basically the biggest kids who get to have first pick.

And having 2 transmutor-level conversions will result in them sharing said marbles.

An example…if I use voidrend talon + take righteou’s fervor’s transmutor, I will end up with 50% phys/chaos conversion, and 50% phys/acid conversion.

This allows for some very interesting things which I’ll discuss more after if you want, so that we don’t get sidetracked.

Moving onwards, assuming that you have your transmutor level conversions is less than 100%, all remaining damage will then get converted by equipment/buffs.

Basically, the small kids now get to fight over the scraps.

An example:
i. We have m. herald of the apocalypse which has 50% aether to fire conversion to devastation (this is a transmutor level conversion)

ii. I have 50% aether to lightning conversion from strom shepherd’s belt.

What ends up happening is that step A, step B scenario. 50% of my aether damage on devastation is converted to fire.

50% of the remaining 50% gets converted to lightning.

So you’ll end up with 50% fire, 25% lightning, 25% aether.

Because ele>X conversion still messes with that somewhere, right? But where & how?

Of all the small kids (i.e. NON-transmutor level operators), individual elemental damage types are the smallest.

What this means is that elemental damage conversion WILL occur before, say, fire damage conversion.

Here’s a GT showing an example of what I mean - https://www.grimtools.com/calc/4ZD4LbYZ

Remove the belt, and watch the lightning damage value double.

But isn’t chaos>vit already at 100% with weapon+hood+chest atm?

Not if you give up the chest piece for darkflame.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that item granted buffs like from beronath reforged, and blood orb occur last.

[Cinder]

The biggest kid gets to have first pick of the prettiest marble because he can muscle his way to the front of the line.

Kids of equal size pick at the same time, and will share things equally.

“All kids are equal, but some kids are more equal than others – because they can fuckin’ lift, bro!!1”

Of all the small kids (i.e. NON-transmutor level operators), individual elemental damage types are the smallest.

What this means is that elemental damage conversion WILL occur before, say, fire damage conversion.

Here’s a GT showing an example of what I mean

That is a very cool example, thanks for the gt!

But how do I lose those ~10% total vit dmg on my RE tooltip with PoT, as opposed to with HoS, now?

Maybe it’s best if I just map out where I’m at currently and then just let the adult step in wherever I try to put the doggy poo in my mouth place again

With 58%ele>vit, 52%fire>vit and 46%fire>acid, the conversion process is as follows (but it probably isn’t):

1. My 100 fire dmg get split into 58 vit and 42 fire due to the belt.
2. All the small vit&acid kids (likely a bunch of drug addicts all together) fight over those 42 fire dmg the big ele kids left behind, resulting in… ~22 extra vit dmg and ~19 extra acid dmg.
3. They all live happily everafter and those 10% dmg lost on RE with PoT were just part of a mean trick the acid kid’s ugly fairy godmother played on us all.
   …?

An example…if I use voidrend talon + take righteou’s fervor’s transmutor, I will end up with 50% phys/chaos conversion, and 50% phys/acid conversion.

This allows for some very interesting things which I’ll discuss more after if you want, so that we don’t get sidetracked.

Yeah, that one’s pretty cool. I think I saw this used in a build somewhere once. Maybe it was one of yours?

[sir_spanksalot]

That one does boggle the mind. Can you post 2 screenshots for me please - both using PoT3:

1. Damage value of RE with PoT3 turned OFF
2. Ditto but with it turned on

EDIT: alternatively, and probably more simply, is to just write out the damage values here.

[Cinder]

EDIT: alternatively, and probably more simply, is to just write out the damage values here.

Nah, pictures are just so much cooler

(no other buffs active)

[sir_spanksalot]

What is your %acid damage value? And your %fire damage value?

EDIT: for both before/after PoT3 toggle

2nd EDIT: Throw in vit damage while you’re at it too for completion’s sake.

[Cinder]

What is your %acid damage value? And your %fire damage value?

…minus 158% on both values if PoT is turned off