1.1.4.2 State of Venomblade

[Nery]

And @powbam no amount of Cow or other animal GIF will stop me!

Nothing wrong with that. My point is everyone here knows exactly where the line is drawn in the sand and who the person who drew that line is. If you can convince him to change the position of that line more power to you but people shouldn’t act like they don’t know where it is.

I have no intention trying to convince Zantai about his standards, not my job. I make as you can see lot of builds and sometimes feedback how I see things. Other players also makes feedbacks, so Zantai’s job is to make the hard decisions what and how to change stuff.

About Venomblade, I tried Witch Hunter. And WH version have innate low health, DA and resistances. Also acid items usually gives only acid resistance and CC are lacking. So you have to make compromises to make it work. In Crucible buffs can cover your weaknesses but in SR you can’t hide them.

I actually liked previous state in FG, where DW melee were kings in Crucible and casters/tanks in SR. Now casters have clear advantage everywhere. Just the current season meta. Hopefully you can’t challenge me there. But I always appreciate nice GIF!

[Superfluff]

It sure is. But for the sake of discussion an arbitrary norm must be adopted. 3+1 is most fitting as it allows a reset of tributes after 3 sub 7 runs. Taking Ulzuin is like 2-3 extra jewelry augments (and all energy problems solved) so 4+1 performance is different from 3+1 performance. You gotta choose one if you wanna talk about performance of a build.

Again, from tribute perspective you can say that the gain should be increased after 160+, which is something i’d get behind

But invalidating a build(builds) for uszing the buff in crucible is imo inadequate.

Yeah… you can… Like this: https://www.grimtools.com/calc/q2MnOvmV. But when you look at that and my original gt:

I looked at your gt yesterday and also the new gt above. The GT I made has very little resemblance to what you made.

And that’s ok, there is more than one way to make a good build. Problem is that you present Gt’s or ideas as if it’s absolutely the only way. It’s hard to carry any debate like this

[powbam]

About Venomblade, I tried Witch Hunter. And WH version have innate low health, DA and resistances. Also acid items usually gives only acid resistance and CC are lacking. So you have to make compromises to make it work. In Crucible buffs can cover your weaknesses but in SR you can’t hide them.

And that’s the kinda stuff people should be pushing for instead rather than going around tossing that #deadbuild noise around everywhere, which imo is ridiculous and total overreaction - like a tantrum if you get my drift. Zantai responds much better to someone with a plan and evidence to back that plan up. People start tossing #deadbuild around, well, don’t be surprised if you get ignored. Just my two cents on that.

But I always appreciate nice GIF!

You know me… there will be no shortage there!

[ya1]

Problem is that you present Gt’s or ideas as if it’s absolutely the only way.

I didn’t mean to do that. And it’s Dmt who started this thread. Her setups are way sturdier than mine.

I find Crucible easy (easier than SR - red.)

Do you know about AGGROMERABUSE?

[Ceno]

shifting the Ideal range of builds for SR from SR60 to SR75 in terms of balance.

I fail to see the purpose in this other than creating more problems/moving goalposts.

SR61+ has long been said to be intentionally unbalanced (for SR itself, not necessarily the builds that go deeper). Per Zantai’s quote

Endgame balancing problem

A build that can clear Glad Crucible 150 (the loot at 170 is only marginally better) and/or SR60 is absolutely viable for endgame and gearing up.

If we want to shift that to SR75, we then need to actually balance SR75 (which likely means nerfing SR61-75). We then also need to nerf SR76+ because the jump between SR75 and SR76 would be inorganically great. So then the “community standard” would become a little over SR75 and being viable for SR75 would be

not “just fine.”

And we’re right back to this thread. All that would really have changed along the way is

• New Players/Selffound Characters take longer to reach the “community standard” SR level.
• Crate wasted a ton of effort in rebalancing later SR levels.

[Maya]

shifting the Ideal range of builds for SR from SR60 to SR75 in terms of balance.

I fail to see the purpose in this other than creating more problems/moving goalposts.

SR61+ has long been said to be intentionally unbalanced (for SR itself, not necessarily the builds that go deeper). Per Zantai’s quote

Endgame balancing problem

A build that can clear Glad Crucible 150 (the loot at 170 is only marginally better) and/or SR60 is absolutely viable for endgame and gearing up.

If we want to shift that to SR75, we then need to actually balance SR75 (which likely means nerfing SR61-75). We then also need to nerf SR76+ because the jump between SR75 and SR76 would be inorganically great. So then the “community standard” would become a little over SR75 and being viable for SR75 would be

not “just fine.”

And we’re right back to this thread. All that would really have changed along the way is

• New Players/Selffound Characters take longer to reach the “community standard” SR level.
• Crate wasted a ton of effort in rebalancing later SR levels.

It is the same reason why Crucible 170 has been taken as the goal post and is balanced around while Zantai considers Glad Crucible 150 as perfectly viable.

[Ceno]

It is the same reason why Crucible 170 has been taken as the goal post and is balanced around while Zantai considers Glad Crucible 150 as perfectly viable.

Right but that wasn’t the original intent of 170 and I doubt Z wants a repeat process of the nightmares that have come from its regulation (see above).

Edit: Consider, suppose Cruci 151-170 released as 151-190 but you didn’t have checkpoints past 150 and loot stopped scaling somewhere around 170 or 180. People would still bragpost about builds doing 190, but that doesn’t necessitate that being the standard for everything and needing to balance the entire 1-189 around it.

[Maya]

It is the same reason why Crucible 170 has been taken as the goal post and is balanced around while Zantai considers Glad Crucible 150 as perfectly viable.

Right but that wasn’t the original intent of 170 and I doubt Z wants a repeat process of the nightmares that have come from its regulation.

Perhaps, but with the new Waystones being added to help pushing further into SR, no real reason to limit things to SR60.

Edit: Consider, suppose Cruci 151-170 released as 151-190 but you didn’t have checkpoints past 150 and loot stopped scaling somewhere around 170 or 180. People would still bragpost about builds doing 190, but that doesn’t necessitate that being the standard for everything and needing to balance the entire 1-189 around it.

People Bragpost about SR 90+ too. I don’t think anyone is saying that SR90 should be the goal

[Ceno]

I don’t think anyone is saying that SR90 should be the goal

Well…yet. And that’s my point.

[Maya]

I don’t think anyone is saying that SR90 should be the goal

Well…yet. And that’s my point.

I mean, they won’t even once the new waystones come in since it will disable loot. If SR 60 is to be taken as the goal then perhaps the last tier of Waystones where you can get loot should stop there. Otherwise, it is only natural that people will want to go for the highest you can achieve.

[Ceno]

If SR 60 is to be taken as the goal then perhaps the last tier of Waystones where you can get loot should stop there.

This I agree with…kinda.

I think there’s merit in a “challenge range” that still offers rewards beyond the “balance range” for people to push themselves and get something for it. But the result, in practice, is that that “challenge range” isn’t talked about as such by the community and is normalized when it shouldn’t be. Perhaps SR61+ should just be made more challenging.

That there’s no incentive to push super deep with a waystone (my understanding is that you’ll still get loot from SR150 if you waystone’d in at SR75, but I may be wrong?) is definitely a good thing, in my opinion.

[Zantai]

If SR 60 is to be taken as the goal then perhaps the last tier of Waystones where you can get loot should stop there.

I mean…yeah, I’ve said as much already that it was a mistake in hindsight to offer loot Waystones past 60, but here we are. No going back now.

[Maya]

If SR 60 is to be taken as the goal then perhaps the last tier of Waystones where you can get loot should stop there.

I mean…yeah, I’ve said as much already that it was a mistake in hindsight to offer loot Waystones past 60, but here we are. No going back now.

[Superfluff]

what are your venomblade dervish killtimes in cruci this patch

[banana_peel]

I don’t get why every thread like this comes to a deadlock of the exact numbers. 6 min bar, 7 min, 5 min, SR60, SR75, SR90… What difference does it make? The issue - here and always - is about relative performance.

What motivation do you have for playing your favourite build if it was nerfed and you have to make a lot of build compromises and kiting in gameplay to achieve 8 min consistent clears (with stressful play) while the build next to it allows consistent and relaxing 6.20? (not talking about Vileblade here, just a vague example)

3buffs 1 banner is absolutely arbitrary

That’s very confusing, especially comming from Praet who makes good builds.

I’ve not been around for long, was it some sort of community mafia to push 3+1? To me it just looks like a suitable point to balance around because it allows endless farm in case of 100% consistent triple clear.

Again, IMO it’s absolutely irrelevant what the exact point is, 3+1, 4+0, 4+1 or naked (i’d personally prefer the latter). But the point has to exist - for the sake of comparing builds’ performance. Aren’t you the one who would like to have such point?

[sir_spanksalot]

casters have clear advantage everywhere

As a die-hard fan of glassy casters, I actually agree with this, albeit reluctantly.

While I’ve never given a hoot about what’s meta (i.e. I’ve always predominantly made casters), the fact that casters are superior to most other non-pet playstyles is indicative that the state of GD is in need of some rebalancing.

I speak subjectively, and generally when I say this…but IMO there are 2 big reasons why casters come up on top:

1. CDR

this significantly improves the uptime of circuit breakers. Resilience, ghoul, mirror, MoT, etc. Thereby allowing the player to more frequently and consistently ignore the crazy amount of debuffs enemies can now stack on you as you kill off a priority target.

Before this increase in debuffs, DW melee relied on raw damage to outplay and outkill enemy mobs. E.g. baiting out father kymon’s chestplosion before returning to dice him up.

This is no longer possible. At least not in crucible, because there is no stat in the game which allows you to reduce the duration of a debuff. (Nullification IMO doesn’t count since it’s an active spell).

Which is why you’ll see plenty of DW melee specs getting ragdolled in 3 + 1.

2. Versatility in building defence

This is actually the reason why I love crafting/playing casters. For the sake of this thread, I will not talk about the many different ways a caster can build defence.

Unlike casters, DW melee NEED to go heavy on damage, and tend to use circuit breakers to stay alive. I say “need” because if you skimp on damage, and try to stack defence, you’ll end up with a half-assed build incapable of doing anything.

Want defence, and enjoy playing melee?

Grab a shield.

Wanna DW?

Stack damage.

But that’s not possible when things like poisonous blooms rain down debuffs on you like mortar fire:

Or when you get zerged rush by enemies capale of doing this:

So…there you have it. You’ve more-or-less taken away the lifeblood of DW melee specs in crucible.

[sir_spanksalot]

To add insult to injury, it’s impossible to tell how exactly you’ve been debuffed.

Even if you memorized what every single enemy is capable of doing, the debuff timers more-or-less look the same.

So good luck trying to plan around that.

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@ya1: Mate, I agree with most of what you’ve said here and I do think VB needs some buffs.

That being said, we need to remember that 170 IS an optional end game challenge which do not allow the vast majority of builds to farm efficiently.

This 3 + 1 standard that has been set by the forum (which is one I also whole-heartedly support because of how practical it is), is still - at the end of the day - an arbitrary line in the sand we as min/maxers have drawn.

It isn’t an objective reflection of the design philosophy of these end game challenges.

So at the end of the day, all we can do as avid fans/players of the game, is to push for what we think is fair/right/balanced/whatever; while accepting whatever it is that Z tosses our way.

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To everyone else who thinks VB dervish is in a good spot, or is doing sufficiently well…

I’d like to remind you that there are only TWO acid builds which are/were capable of accomplishing these end game feats in FG:

1. VB set
2. Dunefiend EoR

And now, VB has been chunked down to a good set, but not a phenomenal one.

To me, this is especially regrettable given the poor state DW melee finds itself in.

[Ceno]

What I got from this was “nerf star pact and time dilation.”

[sir_spanksalot]

TD isn’t used by 99% of my builds, ditto with star pact. Or PoT3 for that matter.

EDIT: Besides, it’s not as though these things were buffed recently. In fact star pact, and TD have been hit by constant nerfs.

Thus, it’s not that casters have been the fortunate recipient of OP-buffs. It’s the opposite - DW melee has been the victim of harsh nerfs.

[RektbyProtoss]

The problem is kinda that ever since the ascension nerf, OK is just too good with TD, or rather too bad without it.