[1.1.5.2] Mind Warp Blades of Krieg. DW melee aether Spellbinder + bonus build

Lol I see some serious anti-Spear prejudice. Again. :skull_and_crossbones: :wink:

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Not accustomed to that. I’d take the proc if there were points but there is none, nothing can be taken out.

Ok. You forced my hand. Now you gotta read a whole essay. :wink:

You’re going out of your way to get 0.21 more attacks per second at the cost of a proc worth at least 0.3 attacks per second dmg-wise let alone AoE, passive activation even when you’re not attacking and virtually unlimited range. Spear is basically like a free Mortar on any build. As shown by AAR madness last patch, it’s worth even with zero lightning to aether and shit wpn dmg.

Nery’s original devos seems spear of the heavens better.

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to you. Which means i’m in luck because the suggestion was made for another person.

The spear in this build does 60%WD + ~420 effective dmg = 0,621,5k + 42029 = ~25k
True melee dps of the build without dummy test is unknown but it’s safe to say that additional 11% to attack and cast speed will increase the dmg output by way more than 25k dps before RR. Without even mentioning that real dps of the spear is way less than 25k because you need to get hit but trash groups often dont even hit you.

Furhermore high AS and CS are very important for the consistency of a melee build because they determine the consistency of leech.

I can’t believe i have to explain that +11% AS and CS are more important for a melee build than this proc. Unless you are trolling, in that case quit it.

The most funny thing though is proc was taken out not for AS but to take 50% slow res to be able to insert BiS pants. In the original map you’d have to do the same thing.

TRIGGERED! :anger:

To me and another one of the three authors of the fastest builds ever. But let’s forget about argumentum ad verecundiam. Here’s hard proof:

You deal an average of 1.14 (Bero) x 1.1 (Bero max charge) x 1.5 (dw) x (1.37+1)/2=1.19 (average wps multiplier over chance) = 224% wpn dmg in one aa strike. The increase in attack speed you propose gives exactly 0.21 more strikes per second which amounts to 47% more wpn dmg per second on the average. Spear also procs once per second on the average (with some cdr) so by the virtue of 60% wpn dmg alone Spear is already better than that 11% attack speed.

Spear already wins. But this is just a small part of it. First, you don’t actually do full 3.66 strikes per second all the time because you travel and cast, and Spear procs virtually all the time. Also, let’s consider Spear’s extra flat which is ~5 times higher than ~40 (Bero) + ~50 (wps flat over chance) = extra ~90 aether on one aa strike (and ~25 times higher than your proposed increase of 0.21 aa strikes). Third, Spear can hit stray mobs outside your melee range. This last thing is priceless.

In conclusion, 11% attack speed loses on every front: wpn dmg, flat, AoE, application. And to address your bringing up leech, Spear deals more wpn dmg per second, more dmg in general, in better AoE and all the time so ofc leech is better with Spear than with extra 11% attack speed.

On the margin, there’s already been a few guys arguing that Spear is crap. That Korvaak is better because, I don’t know, it’s more sparkly and swirly. That this is better than that despite the best builders and pilots proving otherwise time and again. So good thing is you’re not alone.

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So you arent actually trolling. Ok.

Several flaws in your arguing. First of all, you need to consider the end dmg output. If you don’t believe my calculation you can simply check in the dmg box, watch your replay and:

  • see the amount of dmg the spear does
  • observe the consistency of procing. does it really proc EVERY second of your run? spoiler: it does not

Have you done this? I have. This is why i’m so adamant on how much dmg does the spear do throughout the run.

Next. Spear only does full dmg of the build when it strikes someone near you because it is affected by all your RR. Melee attack on the other hand does full dmg. Again, watch ONE replay with a melee build with spear and dmg numbers turned on.

Next. DW has mutlitarget attacks: 25% + 12%. And WPS have high flat. You decided to forget about that.

Again, make sure to check the real dmg output of the build. Not sure what single target does this build have but my similar Sorc kills dummy in 18 secs. It goes through 14.2(?) mln health. 790k dps and that is only single target. After you deduct proc dmg (lets be generous and give it 100k) you get 690k dps. +11 AS/CS give it a 6% dps increase (and more when you have -speed mutators)

So the final result for my build would be:

+11% AS/CS

  • 41k (single target) dps, vastly more in a multitarget environment

Spear

  • 25k hit (+% based on the current RR applied to the target) less often than every second to a single target affecting several targets on rare occasions

Finally. Capped or nearly capped AS (and CS) in my experience are infinitely more important for survivability of a melee char than some inconsistent 60% WD proc. But this point is subjective.

Only you already did not forget. And i’m too old to fight someone’s bloated ego, i had my share of it back in the glory days of the forums. So i’ll leave you alone.

A guy who rants about cold dmg being bad, laughs at my idea of no Seal on Infiltrator and then, a month after that, posts one of the fastest builds - cold Infiltrator. With no Seal.

Just watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zufhisWgRdc. During trash waves it rains non-stop despite nothing surviving more than two seconds. But watch 160, as soon as two Reapers converge - and Reapers themselves don’t have many casts, AoEs and auras - Spear falls twice in less than 2s and then again after he gets out of movement rune. As soon as he gets to Zantarin with the aetherial boss behind it falls 4 times in less than 4s. It procs every second even against double bosses.

And to those enemies you’re dealing zero melee dmg.

I don’t know what that means.

And you decided to forget that you read that I didn’t forget.

I quote myself: let’s consider Spear’s extra flat which is ~5 times higher than ~40 (Bero) + ~50 (wps flat over chance) = extra ~90 aether on one aa strike. End quote. It’s 50 aether on an average strike with a generous rounding it up (~100 from Reaping and ~100 from Necrotic divided by 2x25% chance).

I forgot to forget.

I’m not sure where you’re taking those numbers from. You provide no calculations regarding “current RR” so basically the whole 41k/25k thing sounds like random numbers. And you should’t be using AoE as an argument when only 25% melee strikes here have any AoE at all and it’s only in 180 degree melee range (Necrotic Edge).

11% attack speed might indeed be better on your sorc because you got Explosive, Static and Brimstone. But here, I’ll repeat, Spear deals 60%wpndmg + 532aether. An average strike deals 224%wpndmg + 90aether (everything included, dw, wps, max Bero charge, etc.). And 0.21 of that one strike (your 11% attack speed increase) deals way less dmg every second than Spear. Even if it doesn’t proc exactly every second, and even when you discount Spear’s AoE. The only situation where 11% attack speed on this build is better than Spear is - yes - against the dummy. Because it doesn’t proc against the dummy.

  1. That was before Morgoneth. 2) Cold is still bad unless you convert from lightning. 3) I didn’t laugh. Just opposed the idea of presenting min-maxed dmg-oriented specs as a representation of general state of a dmg type and a set.
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Did you watch it yourself? Did you actually count the amount of spears fallen, to at least try to prove your point about dps? I suppose you did not. Btw that build is a caster with 20% cdr, not a melee build we are talking about now

It’s the amount of multitarget attacks, from Edge and medal

I did the math in the post before. 41k is 6% of a single target dps of the build minus procs which is roughly 690k.

If you really want to know the truth, which i highly doubt, do yourself a favor and take a melee lightning build with average WD, turn the dmg display on, record couple of runs and literally count the amount of spears fallen. Multiply it by the avg spear dmg and then divide by the timer. Then have your spear dps. Compare it to melee dps based on the dummy kill time and the % of time you are not touching enemies during the run.

I’d be dishonest if i’d said i did this math myself. But i count the avg spear dmg (was 30k on the build i did it with) and it’s frequency. I don’t need to dig deeper to know that having your char 6% faster is more important.

You seem to have very specific style of opposing. And i’m not into it tbh. So let’s leave it at that.

Omg, dude! You literally just quoted the paragraph in which I counted them.

Or did you mean stare at the screen and count them all throughout the run? You did that? :rofl: Man, they fall in different spots, some of them are hardly visible, you’d have to watch the vid like 20 times or pause every second to scan the whole screen. And some of them fall out of screen, so you can’t count them all anyway.

Ofc Spears do not fall exactly 360 times in a 6-minute run. But neither do you do 3.66x360 melee strikes in that run. You move, cast, wait for waves, get cc-ed, etc. But as you can see in that vid, every time the toon stayed in melee range from anyone, Spear would fall almost exactly every second with some variation due to cdr and RNG. When Spear has lesser frequency is when you’re away, you wouldn’t be dealing any melee dmg at that time.

It’s called wps. And Direwolf Claw from the medal is single target.

What you just wrote is an abomination. You’re trying to compile numbers based on faulty data from Crucible (selectively counting Spears and assigning arbitrary dmg values based on incomplete observation) and erroneously compare them to performance against dummy. This is either a complete lack of understanding of the factors in build performance or a serious case of motivated reasoning. That 6% dps increase with the dummy you’re boasting is a fallacy. Dummy has no need for AoE or passive dmg, no passive procs, no need for mobility, no variation in defensive stats, etc. It has little to do with build overall performance.

Last thing, you were testing a sorc with Firestrike. Ofc gains from attack speed are better. Still, I don’t think those devos would be optimal even for a sorc. Spear is just too good to drop. The ultimate determinant of whether sth is good or not is peak performance. And almost none of the best lightning and aether builds ever drop Spear.

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My bad, i thought its triple target for some reason

or you killed a pack before spear had a chance to proc - or the spear hit the dead floor. Or when you rightfully use arc from meteors and spear hits it. Or when it hits the mob which would be dead next second anyway - from dots or collateral. Spear, even when procs, very often doesnt work at all, examples of it you can see in your linked video.

But it does work consistently in boss fight. Which is why i did the math for a single fight insatance, just to have a ballpark of dmg of spear and attack in similar circumstances. Apparently it was a mistake because you decided to bounce off of it accusing me of false data, while not providing any data yourself.

It’s not a dummy number. You do things 6% faster. It’s as simple and as undisputed as i can put it. You are faster - you deal more dmg. How much more? It’s hard to say exactly.

In a Cruci run sometimes you spike to millions of dmg. Even during boss waves the total dps is much higher than dummy dps. So i can’t understand how can you possibly think that this small proc worth 25-30k dmg can match a gain your char has from doing things 6% faster.

I am out of words here. You see false data to push an opinion from my part. I see semantics supported with nothing but “everyone picks it” from you. And rising condescension from you as well, which is probably partly my fault due to my wording. I have math education and sometimes when people aren’t… “feeling the math” (in my opinion) in this kind of things i get triggered too easily. For that i apologize and will be on my way.

Please dont fill the forums with bickering. Thanks.

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But my bickering is 16.54% better than his bickering. And that’s before applying crit-bickering.

Which can lead to a bickering ban of course. So better to not bicker at all.

Concerning your bonus build (Bonemonger using Oblivion).
It´s super fun and powerful at the same time (THE thing I´m always looking for).
I altered it a bit - dropped Storm Box, included Aether Corruption.
I wrote a script for that (props to @tqFan), which includes:

  1. auto camera rotation when cursor at the edges of the screen
  2. When holding right mousebutton (AKA attacking with oblivion):
  • refresh of Word of Renewal automated
  • casting Aether corruption if cursor is above an enemy (only once per click)
  • casting Bone Harvest after 3 attacks of Oblivion and repeating Bone Harvest every 5 seconds
  • casting Inquisitor Seal asap and repeating it every 2 seconds

This way the ground gets filled with seals during combat - You do not have to consider seal cooldown anymore.
All those casts are mostly being done conveniently in between Oblivion casts. At most you´ll have a delay of around 0,2 seconds whenever auto-casting seals.
Very convenient playstyle with it - just mentioning, if anyone is interested, I can upload it for you.

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Oh that’s very interesting idea. Personally don’t know how to use scripts, let alone make them. But you can upload them if you want, sounds cool.

Easy thing.
Downloadable here:

Contact if problems.

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Hey there,

I´m still currently proceeding in Main Campaign with your Bonus Build (Bonemonger Oblivion). Hell, I gotta say: For a build utilizing an item granted skill - that toon rocks!
Encountered the bourbon clones. Its killing them as fast as top-DPS-builds, experiencing no damage spikes!
Gave Mogdrogen a shot, with the exact equipment as in OP. He did not kill him, yes. But he sustained very long! Longer than my Belgo-Blademaster.

This amazing build uses an item granted skill, yet is super fun to play due to many other utilized skills.
It lays a tapestry of both offensive and protective seals on the ground, kills fast like top-notch builds and is: sturdy!
Great Idea, Nery, deserves much more attention than the bonus-niche it is atm ^^.

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Thanks for your kind words!

Yes build it’s interesting, it have only the bonus status, since I wanted to fit more builds in less topics. But it’s fun an I like Oblivion skill :slightly_smiling_face:

Tweaked your Oblivion Build (Abomination, Wendigo, Ill Omen, some more).
That bastard is my best and still most fun build now.
Facetank Lokarr, kill Mogdrogen (with Starfury Emerald), facetank Morgoneth (wooh!) and SR80 pass (with frickin Grava at the end)

https://www.grimtools.com/calc/4ZD91LkN

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Interesting take. Also Oblivion got recently buffed, so slightly more damage and sustain. Interesting if Korvaak devotion can be used. :thinking: