[1.1.5.2] Mind Warp Blades of Krieg. DW melee aether Spellbinder + bonus build

[Nery]

• enemies are sucked into this dual Mind Warp field!

Introduction

I am gonna crush your friends at Devil’s Crossing! Feel my Wrath!

Not really pal, I use Krieg set but without Krieg’s Wrath

So Krieg set is really versatile, this time will show you pure DW melee Binder and something extra… Big thanks to @mad_lee for testing this build, recording video and providing feedback!

Main Build

• pic with perma buffs and Dying God

GRIM TOOLS https://www.grimtools.com/calc/vNQEOnMN

Gear&Skills:

Key here is the Krieg set, which is target farmable and dual Minwarp weapons. They are very nice because of their crazy procs, which are up all the time. Also used are:

• Rings - Magelord duo. I like the elemental to aether conversion, flat aether and proc on top of that. Eternal Haunt+Albrecht is also an option.

• Amulet - Vanquisher’s gem. Another target farmable item, ingenious move - %aether damage, CDR and most importantly +1 Arcanist. Both Lee and Plasmodermic suggested Conduit with Siphon Souls mod. I decided to not use conduit at all but it’s safer option for sure.

• Medal - Direwolf allows dual wielding and have massive OA and useful resistances.

• Belt - green MI with +1 Arcanist and conversion from vitality to aether, converting Soul Harvest damage and Necro WPS.

• Relic - Agrivix. Nice racial damage and proc. I think it’s BiS, since Eternity works with off-hand only. Haunt is cheaper option.

• Pants - Tranquil Mind. Spirit and slow resistance is nice combo.

Skills: So nice to hardcap both Reckless Power and Inner focus. Necro WPS are also good for DW melee build. Necrotic Edge needs to be at 12/12 for extra target and Reaping Strike until it stop increasing the chance to trigger.

Devotions:

Standard aether route into blue/red territory with Spear of Heavens and Dying God for speed/crit damage. Ghoul and Bat for defense and utility.

Performance

I completed 11 out of 12 runs in Crucible. Build can have problems with burst damage and needs to be careful in tough waves and time Mirror and Nullification. In other waves AdctH and Ghoul will take care of your defense.

Times are around 6:35-6:40 on average in my play. Here’s video 6:17!

And also Mad_Lee video - 6:13!

Bonus Build

GRIM TOOLS https://www.grimtools.com/calc/RZRkOJ0N

That’s the cool looking Bonemonger Apostate using Oblivion relic spam skill and having incredible amounts of RR and racial damage against almost all possible enemies. Tag Bonemonger enthusiasts @valinov and @thejabrixone

Key here is to full convert chaos and vitality damage from Oblivion to aether. 2x Albrecht can have full chaos to aether conversion. Vitality is achieved with 2x Bonemonger set parts and belt.

Build have decent clear rate and times between 6:40 and 7:10.

[Nery]

I always say that bonemonger is the set of possibilities. Nice to see a unique little caster come out of it .

Thanks!

Bonemonger is the cool alternative of SR set, so many classes, aether or elemntal damage

[banana_peel]

Hey brother!

Didn’t expect the binder to work so nicely! I need to revisit my build as well.

Considering yours. I’d suggest to take more AS. There is a lot on the table, and the devo map kinda allows it. Both Jackal and Spider should improve clear times.

[Momar]

I have idly been looking at making a dw spellbinder to use a nice heart of marcell drop. The theorycraft I ended up with looked not too far from this, but I didn’t really move forward with trying it yet in part because I realized I had almost no AoE outside of devotions. It doesn’t really seem like you have an issue with it though. Any particular thoughts on this? I wonder if agrivix does a lot of work here- did you try with a different relic? Or is siphon souls better damage than I think it is? Or just enough single target that it works out?

At any rate build looks fun, thanks for posting it.

[Nery]

I have idly been looking at making a dw spellbinder to use a nice heart of marcell drop. The theorycraft I ended up with looked not too far from this, but I didn’t really move forward with trying it yet in part because I realized I had almost no AoE outside of devotions. It doesn’t really seem like you have an issue with it though. Any particular thoughts on this? I wonder if agrivix does a lot of work here- did you try with a different relic? Or is siphon souls better damage than I think it is? Or just enough single target that it works out?

At any rate build looks fun, thanks for posting it.

Yes build have limited AoE possibilities. But Agrivix relic and Spear are nice AoE sources. Also Necrotic edge can hit multiple targets. In Crucible build can count on Beacons for trash clearing as well.

Hey brother!

Didn’t expect the binder to work so nicely! I need to revisit my build as well.

Considering yours. I’d suggest to take more AS. There is a lot on the table, and the devo map kinda allows it. Both Jackal and Spider should improve clear times.

Thanks!

I do remember the Sorc. I think you are much better pilot compared to back then, so you will do faster times if you revise your build.

Attack speed is nice. But I have nice number with good rolls and DG active.

[banana_peel]

https://www.grimtools.com/calc/r2BW1LKV
looks to be a bit better. Everything is higher except OA. But there is no dots so AS and raw dmg are more important than OA.

[Nery]

https://www.grimtools.com/calc/r2BW1LKV
looks to be a bit better. Everything is higher except OA. But there is no dots so AS and raw dmg are more important than OA.

Looks good, will try it. Not sure if lost of Bat is big deal, probably for melee no. Interesting not to take Spear proc for Aoe.

[ya1]

https://www.grimtools.com/calc/r2BW1LKV

Lol I see some serious anti-Spear prejudice. Again.

[banana_peel]

prejudice

Not accustomed to that. I’d take the proc if there were points but there is none, nothing can be taken out.

[ya1]

Ok. You forced my hand. Now you gotta read a whole essay.

You’re going out of your way to get 0.21 more attacks per second at the cost of a proc worth at least 0.3 attacks per second dmg-wise let alone AoE, passive activation even when you’re not attacking and virtually unlimited range. Spear is basically like a free Mortar on any build. As shown by AAR madness last patch, it’s worth even with zero lightning to aether and shit wpn dmg.

Nery’s original devos seems spear of the heavens better.

[banana_peel]

seems

to you. Which means i’m in luck because the suggestion was made for another person.

The spear in this build does 60%WD + ~420 effective dmg = 0,621,5k + 42029 = ~25k
True melee dps of the build without dummy test is unknown but it’s safe to say that additional 11% to attack and cast speed will increase the dmg output by way more than 25k dps before RR. Without even mentioning that real dps of the spear is way less than 25k because you need to get hit but trash groups often dont even hit you.

Furhermore high AS and CS are very important for the consistency of a melee build because they determine the consistency of leech.

I can’t believe i have to explain that +11% AS and CS are more important for a melee build than this proc. Unless you are trolling, in that case quit it.

The most funny thing though is proc was taken out not for AS but to take 50% slow res to be able to insert BiS pants. In the original map you’d have to do the same thing.

[ya1]

TRIGGERED!

to you.

To me and another one of the three authors of the fastest builds ever. But let’s forget about argumentum ad verecundiam. Here’s hard proof:

You deal an average of 1.14 (Bero) x 1.1 (Bero max charge) x 1.5 (dw) x (1.37+1)/2=1.19 (average wps multiplier over chance) = 224% wpn dmg in one aa strike. The increase in attack speed you propose gives exactly 0.21 more strikes per second which amounts to 47% more wpn dmg per second on the average. Spear also procs once per second on the average (with some cdr) so by the virtue of 60% wpn dmg alone Spear is already better than that 11% attack speed.

Spear already wins. But this is just a small part of it. First, you don’t actually do full 3.66 strikes per second all the time because you travel and cast, and Spear procs virtually all the time. Also, let’s consider Spear’s extra flat which is ~5 times higher than ~40 (Bero) + ~50 (wps flat over chance) = extra ~90 aether on one aa strike (and ~25 times higher than your proposed increase of 0.21 aa strikes). Third, Spear can hit stray mobs outside your melee range. This last thing is priceless.

In conclusion, 11% attack speed loses on every front: wpn dmg, flat, AoE, application. And to address your bringing up leech, Spear deals more wpn dmg per second, more dmg in general, in better AoE and all the time so ofc leech is better with Spear than with extra 11% attack speed.

On the margin, there’s already been a few guys arguing that Spear is crap. That Korvaak is better because, I don’t know, it’s more sparkly and swirly. That this is better than that despite the best builders and pilots proving otherwise time and again. So good thing is you’re not alone.

[banana_peel]

So you arent actually trolling. Ok.

Several flaws in your arguing. First of all, you need to consider the end dmg output. If you don’t believe my calculation you can simply check in the dmg box, watch your replay and:

• see the amount of dmg the spear does
• observe the consistency of procing. does it really proc EVERY second of your run? spoiler: it does not

Have you done this? I have. This is why i’m so adamant on how much dmg does the spear do throughout the run.

Next. Spear only does full dmg of the build when it strikes someone near you because it is affected by all your RR. Melee attack on the other hand does full dmg. Again, watch ONE replay with a melee build with spear and dmg numbers turned on.

Next. DW has mutlitarget attacks: 25% + 12%. And WPS have high flat. You decided to forget about that.

Again, make sure to check the real dmg output of the build. Not sure what single target does this build have but my similar Sorc kills dummy in 18 secs. It goes through 14.2(?) mln health. 790k dps and that is only single target. After you deduct proc dmg (lets be generous and give it 100k) you get 690k dps. +11 AS/CS give it a 6% dps increase (and more when you have -speed mutators)

So the final result for my build would be:

+11% AS/CS

• 41k (single target) dps, vastly more in a multitarget environment

Spear

• 25k hit (+% based on the current RR applied to the target) less often than every second to a single target affecting several targets on rare occasions

Finally. Capped or nearly capped AS (and CS) in my experience are infinitely more important for survivability of a melee char than some inconsistent 60% WD proc. But this point is subjective.

To me and another one of the three authors of the fastest builds ever. But let’s forget about argumentum ad verecundiam.

Only you already did not forget. And i’m too old to fight someone’s bloated ego, i had my share of it back in the glory days of the forums. So i’ll leave you alone.

A guy who rants about cold dmg being bad, laughs at my idea of no Seal on Infiltrator and then, a month after that, posts one of the fastest builds - cold Infiltrator. With no Seal.

[ya1]

observe the consistency of procing. does it really proc EVERY second of your run? spoiler: it does not

Just watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zufhisWgRdc. During trash waves it rains non-stop despite nothing surviving more than two seconds. But watch 160, as soon as two Reapers converge - and Reapers themselves don’t have many casts, AoEs and auras - Spear falls twice in less than 2s and then again after he gets out of movement rune. As soon as he gets to Zantarin with the aetherial boss behind it falls 4 times in less than 4s. It procs every second even against double bosses.

Spear only does full dmg of the build when it strikes someone near you because it is affected by all your RR

And to those enemies you’re dealing zero melee dmg.

DW has mutlitarget attacks: 25% + 12%

I don’t know what that means.

And WPS have high flat. You decided to forget about that.

And you decided to forget that you read that I didn’t forget.

I quote myself: let’s consider Spear’s extra flat which is ~5 times higher than ~40 (Bero) + ~50 (wps flat over chance) = extra ~90 aether on one aa strike. End quote. It’s 50 aether on an average strike with a generous rounding it up (~100 from Reaping and ~100 from Necrotic divided by 2x25% chance).

Only you already did not forget.

I forgot to forget.

Spear

• 25k hit (+% based on the current RR applied to the target)

I’m not sure where you’re taking those numbers from. You provide no calculations regarding “current RR” so basically the whole 41k/25k thing sounds like random numbers. And you should’t be using AoE as an argument when only 25% melee strikes here have any AoE at all and it’s only in 180 degree melee range (Necrotic Edge).

11% attack speed might indeed be better on your sorc because you got Explosive, Static and Brimstone. But here, I’ll repeat, Spear deals 60%wpndmg + 532aether. An average strike deals 224%wpndmg + 90aether (everything included, dw, wps, max Bero charge, etc.). And 0.21 of that one strike (your 11% attack speed increase) deals way less dmg every second than Spear. Even if it doesn’t proc exactly every second, and even when you discount Spear’s AoE. The only situation where 11% attack speed on this build is better than Spear is - yes - against the dummy. Because it doesn’t proc against the dummy.

A guy who rants about cold dmg being bad, laughs at my idea of no Seal on Infiltrator and then, a month after that, posts one of the fastest builds - cold Infiltrator. With no Seal.

1. That was before Morgoneth. 2) Cold is still bad unless you convert from lightning. 3) I didn’t laugh. Just opposed the idea of presenting min-maxed dmg-oriented specs as a representation of general state of a dmg type and a set.

[banana_peel]

Just watch this

Did you watch it yourself? Did you actually count the amount of spears fallen, to at least try to prove your point about dps? I suppose you did not. Btw that build is a caster with 20% cdr, not a melee build we are talking about now

I don’t know what that means.

It’s the amount of multitarget attacks, from Edge and medal

I’m not sure where you’re taking those numbers from.

I did the math in the post before. 41k is 6% of a single target dps of the build minus procs which is roughly 690k.

If you really want to know the truth, which i highly doubt, do yourself a favor and take a melee lightning build with average WD, turn the dmg display on, record couple of runs and literally count the amount of spears fallen. Multiply it by the avg spear dmg and then divide by the timer. Then have your spear dps. Compare it to melee dps based on the dummy kill time and the % of time you are not touching enemies during the run.

I’d be dishonest if i’d said i did this math myself. But i count the avg spear dmg (was 30k on the build i did it with) and it’s frequency. I don’t need to dig deeper to know that having your char 6% faster is more important.

opposed the idea

You seem to have very specific style of opposing. And i’m not into it tbh. So let’s leave it at that.

[ya1]

Did you watch it yourself? Did you actually count the amount of spears fallen

Omg, dude! You literally just quoted the paragraph in which I counted them.

Or did you mean stare at the screen and count them all throughout the run? You did that? Man, they fall in different spots, some of them are hardly visible, you’d have to watch the vid like 20 times or pause every second to scan the whole screen. And some of them fall out of screen, so you can’t count them all anyway.

Ofc Spears do not fall exactly 360 times in a 6-minute run. But neither do you do 3.66x360 melee strikes in that run. You move, cast, wait for waves, get cc-ed, etc. But as you can see in that vid, every time the toon stayed in melee range from anyone, Spear would fall almost exactly every second with some variation due to cdr and RNG. When Spear has lesser frequency is when you’re away, you wouldn’t be dealing any melee dmg at that time.

It’s the amount of multitarget attacks, from Edge and medal

It’s called wps. And Direwolf Claw from the medal is single target.

If you really want to know the truth, which i highly doubt, do yourself a favor and take a melee lightning build with average WD, turn the dmg display on, record couple of runs and literally count the amount of spears fallen. Multiply it by the avg spear dmg and then divide by the timer. Then have your spear dps. Compare it to melee dps based on the dummy kill time and the % of time you are not touching enemies during the run.

What you just wrote is an abomination. You’re trying to compile numbers based on faulty data from Crucible (selectively counting Spears and assigning arbitrary dmg values based on incomplete observation) and erroneously compare them to performance against dummy. This is either a complete lack of understanding of the factors in build performance or a serious case of motivated reasoning. That 6% dps increase with the dummy you’re boasting is a fallacy. Dummy has no need for AoE or passive dmg, no passive procs, no need for mobility, no variation in defensive stats, etc. It has little to do with build overall performance.

Last thing, you were testing a sorc with Firestrike. Ofc gains from attack speed are better. Still, I don’t think those devos would be optimal even for a sorc. Spear is just too good to drop. The ultimate determinant of whether sth is good or not is peak performance. And almost none of the best lightning and aether builds ever drop Spear.

[banana_peel]

And Direwolf Claw from the medal is single target.

My bad, i thought its triple target for some reason

is when you’re away, you wouldn’t be dealing any melee dmg at that time

or you killed a pack before spear had a chance to proc - or the spear hit the dead floor. Or when you rightfully use arc from meteors and spear hits it. Or when it hits the mob which would be dead next second anyway - from dots or collateral. Spear, even when procs, very often doesnt work at all, examples of it you can see in your linked video.

But it does work consistently in boss fight. Which is why i did the math for a single fight insatance, just to have a ballpark of dmg of spear and attack in similar circumstances. Apparently it was a mistake because you decided to bounce off of it accusing me of false data, while not providing any data yourself.

That 6% dps increase with the dummy you’re boasting is a fallacy.

It’s not a dummy number. You do things 6% faster. It’s as simple and as undisputed as i can put it. You are faster - you deal more dmg. How much more? It’s hard to say exactly.

In a Cruci run sometimes you spike to millions of dmg. Even during boss waves the total dps is much higher than dummy dps. So i can’t understand how can you possibly think that this small proc worth 25-30k dmg can match a gain your char has from doing things 6% faster.

I am out of words here. You see false data to push an opinion from my part. I see semantics supported with nothing but “everyone picks it” from you. And rising condescension from you as well, which is probably partly my fault due to my wording. I have math education and sometimes when people aren’t… “feeling the math” (in my opinion) in this kind of things i get triggered too easily. For that i apologize and will be on my way.

[Barf_Mog]

Please dont fill the forums with bickering. Thanks.

[ya1]

Please dont fill the forums with bickering. Thanks.

But my bickering is 16.54% better than his bickering. And that’s before applying crit-bickering.

[medea_fleecestealer]

Which can lead to a bickering ban of course. So better to not bicker at all.