There’s a fundamental aspect of 2handers that doesn’t work in the current game - they were designed around having much higher flat base. But since that original concept the game has gotten so many opportunities to stack and convert flat that it becomes irrelevant. It goes smth like this:
A 2hander has, say avg flat of 400, with some 450 bonus flat from other source
The same build with DW has 150 base flat on the weapons, gets the same 450 bonus flat
In the end 2handed build has 850 flat applied ONCE in its attacks, DW build has 600 flat applied TWICE
Guess who wins?
There are some specific instances where 2H melee gets an edge, all of them have smth to do with Shaman and Savagery having 18% tdm, big modifiers on specific gear, like Avenger, and big bonus from Brute force on top.
In literally every instance with parity in modifiers, DW wins, because it gets all the flat doubled and has higher attack speed.
Important part is this is not the case with 2H ranged. Why? Becuase 2H ranged has some ridiculous end WD modifiers on WPS thanks to manupulations with the amounf of bullets.
Plunderer is a 240% WD WPS for 2H
Storm Spread is a 288%+ WD WPS for 2H
Chilling Rounds is a 264%+ WD WPS for 2H
Shadowflame is a 255% WD WPS
Blazing Fury is a 250% WD WPS for 2H
DW ranged has nothing of this sort at all, that is why 2H ranged and DW are competitive with each other.
With Avenger Archon/Warder, basically the only competitive 2H melee AA builds, it is also the case that the build has huge WD multipliers on its WPS. Do you see a pattern?
If 2H melee could somehow get big WD multiplier treatment similarly to 2H ranged on a baseline level, it would be a huge improvement for the archetype. But without an option of bullet number manipulation is it even possible to do?
I played both builds and, while they’re not bad, Upheaval is a super unreliable skill to build around. Veilkeeper has massive AoE and DoT-support from 4 totems, Blazerush has limited AoE and depends solely on Upheaval procs. While both builds stand their ground pretty well, I’d say, damage output is a total casino.
Yep, Upheaval is a unique skill. But it works (works) for 2 builds, it’s never taken on Avenger and FoA probably won’t make things any better.
In FoA, we will have modifiers which increase chance of a regular WPS. This means it will be relatively easy to reach 40%-50% or higher chance for a regular WPS.
But for Upheaval, the cost is very high to reach 5k OA, ~40% chance of crit/Upheaval.
not for everything, and 2h melee is still losing here to dw/ranged, hell, even to snb!
if you’re playing apostate or ritualist, you need +20% chance to both RS and NE to get 100% wps pool. and you probably need it every single time. feral hunger sucks for anything that’s not phys/bleed, and there are no 2h wps to fill the pool.
The addition of oleron to the component wps pool has been excellent for the game. 2h did not benefit from this as much as every other archetype because 2h is not allowed to use two weapon components. Very sad situation, especially because the devs have gone on record many times saying this will never change. The devs say a lot of things will never change though; yet somehow where there’s a will, there’s a way. #cenowasright
care to share? i have not seen not thought to consider totems on Veilkeeper sounds spiffy
and like McGraw said, why not just introduce 2h exclusive comps?
We already have slot specific comp restriction anyways, and other items with slot restriction plunder/bladedancer relics, belt + medal granted etc
if 2hs are getting that much less “passively”, by Banana’s 1x 800 v 2x600 example, seems like they deserve some target bonus “actives”
Maybe when you apply Oleron to your weapon, the game can check if it’s a 2H weapon and secretly apply a 2H version of the component with higher WPS. And the tooltip for Oleron can simply say “25% chance to activate with 2H weapon”
For all I care we craft a 2h oleron from 2 oleron components or something like that. We already have augments specifically for 2h, I don’t see why we can’t have components like that.
+1, because yeah, Upheaval is frankly only good for proccing “on crit” devotion skills these days.
Taking it with my meme Avenger Cadence Warder did help though:
Still meme, still requires Oleron’s Blood to help DPS output. But I would give my right nut for more WPS so I could drop Upheaval. But getting up to 500K IT DoTs is fun :3 Well, with a previous devotion path. Current one works better for SR34-35, still can’t 1 vs 2 or more most bosses though.
But it Bonks. And if there were more WPS for it, it would bonk more.
Yeap, but I don’t have 100% WPS, so it procs enough in between everything else. And so procs Assassin’s Blade readily in testing. I could have 100% WPS, but I’d have to sacrifice flat damage, %health and OA/DA to get there. And all those flats help Cadence hit like a tank.
aye, just pointing out, you basically have like… 5-6% chance to trigger AM there
So it’s only “good”, because AM lasts 20 seconds, if you had Oleron, Ultos etc, it would be “horrible” because low activation devo
*on 68% wps+
It’s greater than that, I see it proccing constantly in testing Mainly because Blitz strips off 270 DA off enemies, which gives me enough OA to proc Upheaval regularly. And so allows me to bind Maul to Cadence and get a bit more adctch from it. Probably should just bind Maul to Wendigo Totem, but this build’s still in the “messing around with it” phase.
So basically any hit that’s not a WPS hit is an Upheaval hit when Cadence isn’t ready.
if you’re testing against dummies that’s why
bosses have much higher DA, giving you around what 20% crit chance? against hard enemies/non celestials
so that’s 2 hits per second (3rd hit overrides), with 32*0.2 each
that’s 13% chance per second, which would be horribly wasted on a boss with a devo that has 1sec CD like the other crit devso
Heck in the meta sense it might even not be preferably in terms of potential “slow” initial AM application even if you could roll 100% uptime easy.
*and remember AM doesn’t spread nor will aoe apply as it count as single application per instant hit
**personally i’m with you, and have maul on AA too if not having a 100% efficient proccer, just pointing out the upheaval /default great devo proccer depending on wps etc, so it’s hardly a “saving grace interaction” by itself on the general side
And I have seen Upheaval proc constantly in the boss room too. Because an OA of effectively 3500 does help proc it well enough, since I’m not using it as my main damage source.
Now if only I hadn’t taken a zopiclone last night, I’d have footage. Keep making stupid mistakes in SR34-35 and dying. Did learn a lighting resist pot makes Valdaran a push over though.
minus whatever OA shred etc you might get tossed, not counting in fumbles and slow in terms of chance per second ofc
*also, i went and hit the dummy with a fat 30% crit chance, the numbers still hold up, it can indeed be uncomfortably slow to apply AM, taking seconds/up to 10+hits before it happens, which is in line with what the stats would be
Eh, did actually test out using AM on Cadence and well, it does work better, more likely to be applied to Kuba in SR and IM too. Which is definitely interesting since Upheaval should have worked better. But I’'ll take it
Getting very annoyed though with constant piloting errors on my end. Should really run away more. Since 250-400K IT DoT’s do a lot of trash and hero clearance with this build. And Doomforce is just OP with a 2H weapon.
I am also having more meme-based ideas about physical Upheaval using Nature’s Avenger, with the added meme of using Reckless Tempest since Avenger can easily convert it all to physical damage. Going to be painful to build, since hello massive OA stacking.
no, that’s my point - this was expected
because of the specific Upheaval mechanics being lamented here, it’s not a saving grave for proccing crit devos, except in the scenario of being a Upheaval build with 0 or super low wps or sky high crit chance
because wps overrrides upheaval procs even on crit; it means you get the same, (but potential worse/lower), multiplicative devo proccing interaction you would on tying a regular wps to a regular devo
(with cadence interaction here just making it that bit lower with an extra fixed override)
because of that, and build specific OA/crit chance, it can actually be better to have have a regular %chance devo on upheaval since non wps hits still count as upheaval for regular triggers, - which is useful during levelling where crit chance sucks
sounds spiffy
Mainly because Blitz strips off 270 DA off enemies, which gives me enough OA to proc Upheaval regularly. And so allows me to bind Maul to Cadence and get a bit more adctch from it. Probably should just bind Maul to Wendigo Totem, but this build’s still in the “messing around with it” phase.
