A few retal builds and some thoughts on retaliation [1.2.1.6]

Grim Dawn Classes, Skills and Builds
1

Builds:

  1. Phys Retal RF Warlord
    Warlord, Level 100 (GD 1.2.1.6) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator
    5x SR30-31 [1.2.1.6] - 21:12 (4:14 average)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxbRYYA8l08

  2. Phys RtA Blitz Warlord
    Warlord, Level 100 (GD 1.2.1.6) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator
    5x SR30-31 [1.2.1.6] - 23:19 (4:40 average, 1 death)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FO7kxGRRKOU

  3. Phys RtA DE DeathKnight
    Death Knight, Level 100 (GD 1.2.1.6) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator
    5x SR30-31 [1.2.1.6] - 22:29 (4:30 average)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rmptgx-m3aU
    Ravager of Minds [1.2.1.6] 100 second
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QLrvAr-KpU

  4. Lightning/Fire RtA FOI Purifier
    Purifier, Level 100 (GD 1.2.1.6) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator
    5x SR30-31 [1.2.1.6] - 19:00 (3:48 average)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEC-xC3fqhw
    SR30-31 [1.2.1.6] - 2:56 run (short rooms)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ibie4vNuATM

  5. Acid RtA DE Oppressor
    Oppressor, Level 100 (GD 1.2.1.6) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator
    5x SR30-31 [1.2.1.6] - 25:27 (5:05 average, 4 death)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKqp3cmSlWU
    Ravager of Minds [1.2.1.6] 84 second
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRFlHCgyAUA

  6. Fire/Lightning RtA DE Oppressor
    Oppressor, Level 100 (GD 1.2.1.6) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator
    5x SR30-31 [1.2.1.6] - 24:55 (4:59 average, 1 death)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrLf-y1DbW0

  7. Hellborne Aether RtA DE Defiler
    Defiler, Level 100 (GD 1.2.1.6) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator
    4.5x SR30-31 [1.2.1.6] - (4:16 average, crash at run 5)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0DVhejh83Q&t=2s
    Ravager of Minds [1.2.1.6] 65 second
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zXTIwap3Hg

  8. Aether RtA DE Defiler
    Defiler, Level 100 (GD 1.2.1.6) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator
    Ravager of Minds [1.2.1.6] 68 second
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=be0uMtFtjek

  9. Chaos CounterStrike Witchblade
    Witchblade, Level 100 (GD 1.2.1.6) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator
    SR30-31 [1.2.1.6] 6:14 run (normal rooms)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNgtgEIeUWM

Thoughts:

  1. Compared to RtA FoI, RtA DE and RtA Aegis need buffs.
    Fol does 33% x 8 = 264% RtA per second, DE does 160%. Besides, Necromancer does not have any % retal damage (can’t even get it from skill modifiers). Nowadays retal DE builds have both lower retal damage sheet and lower RtA per second, resulting in much lower DPS. Low DPS results in slower killing speed, further resulting in the decline in survival ability. You can see RtA DE build can hardly achieve sub 4 SR30-31 runs and are very dangerous in farming. Another thing is that DE has no %WD part thus RtA DE has some troubles with RR .I assume it need an extra 5% RtA (most of the 5% should be on the shield) and some other effect, some RR for example.
    Ageis also need some more RtA (by decreasing retal penalty), but it don’t need other effect.

  2. This is something systematical——t2 retal devotions contributes to damage much more than t3 ones, if you consider devotion routes as a whole. If you don’t go for t3 devotions, you may be able to take 2 more t2 ones, resulting in higher damage.
    One theoretical example is Level 100 (GD 1.2.1.6) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator and Level 100 (GD 1.2.1.6) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator. The one that abandon Vire Devotion have higher damage, higher OA/DA, better block, higher HP, and thus overall become the better one.
    Two practical examples are Dawnbreaker Warder and Aegis Archon, they both get promoted once they don’t use Obelisk and pick Hyrian and Targo instead (when spec by Mad_lee).

  3. Hellborne plus Kraken has some risk of abusing. Here I’ve shown you Hellborne Aether RtA DE. Though it abadon one (of 2) core item of RtA DE, it still deals higher damage due to its super high base retal damage. Fire damage type is the other fundamental cause, because fire2xxx conversion is the easiest to find. Another example is Sentinel, Level 100 (GD 1.2.1.6) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator.

  4. Some other RtA skills that imo need buff:
    CT: its RtA per second is waaaaaaay lower than FoI and Acranist does not have any support for retal. Imo it needs higher RtA and the offhand should give Acranist some % retal damage.
    Necrotic Edge and Execution: These two refers to one item——Scion of Noxious Wounds. 40% RtA itself is a fair enough number, but none of the item, Nacromancer and Nightblade has balanced retal damage support. Thus no matter you play Oppressor or Dervish, it sucks.
    Blitz: The problem is, retal Soldier don’t support fire or acid retal damage well, but retal damage on MI shield will be reduced by armor twice (one time for prefix and the another of surfix). Therefore using the blitz MI shield doesn’t seem very wise, resulting in relatively high CD and further low RtA per second compared to other RtA skills. Imo, it probably needs some extra %RtA, and definitely extra -0.? CD to compensate for the absence of shield.

  5. Something off this topic. Conduit of Chaos/Aether CS looks like a joke. CS cannot be relied on to be a core skill, unless it has better %WD, higher flat damage and higher trigger rate, from or not from modifiers on Conduit.

9 Likes
2

Don’t know if this may be useful. I tested pet retaliation a while back.
Pet Retaliation Test
It “felt like” pet retaliation at least is insignificant.

3

It has mirror and reckless power. They might not be great, but it’s better than necro :stuck_out_tongue:

4

Mythical Turrion’s Reprisal is pretty good.

5

EoR too maybe? Have you played it? I doubt it’s very strong. I made this build once (just to show that it’s playable) but I don’t play enough retal (and at all tbf) to have good opinion 1.1.9.7 Retal Eye of Reckoning | Ravager, Callagadra, SR75 farm*

Also thanks for some build ideas. Kinda funny, like Phys Retal Blitz despite the conversion. Or these non-standard Hellborne builds. Theorycrafting Retal is always fun. Playing not always :stuck_out_tongue:

1 Like
6

Yeah, I agree with pretty much everything that has been said. I also tested Acid RtA DE during this top20 testing and it was pretty atrocious. Basically it’s builds that use Grenado and Hellborne (slightly overbuffed combination) and then that Warder that just has a big arsenal of RtA spells/procs and huge tank (but on their own none of those spells are strong enough to carry a build, like Vines or CS or RtA Savagery, latter being especially useless). Retal Aegis spam feels slow even after I applied all the latest meta tech to it and bumped casting speed to almost 190%.

2 Likes
7

Isn’t this better with more smash and smite rata with Okaloth's Visage - Items - Grim Dawn Item Database and Stoneguard Pummeler - Items - Grim Dawn Item Database ?

Also just noticed there’s a cooldown forcewave rata :see_no_evil: with The Pummeler - Items - Grim Dawn Item Database I doubt that’ll be any good.

1 Like
8

I guess you forget a :stuck_out_tongue:, do you? :thinking:

Optimizing Smite is better. Nowadays RtA per hit of high number (like 60% to smite) is the only rescue for physical retal builds. The one I listed is of low damage and keep its speed only because of its 3 mobility skill.

Physical one is totally dead after the armor by-passing fix. Acid ones can only stack either enough retal damage or AS%. DPS would be around 250k, not good enough for EoR nowadays. Would hope for some AS% on Perdition set.

Imo these two are beneficiary of T2 devotions who stick their necks out. 240% retal damage on Kraken takes only two points. Both of them have 100% phys2fire/lightning conversion to maxmize effect of Shield Wall(Targo Proc). Hyrian continues to contribute to their RtA arsenal. All these together generate a 6%-8% final damage increase as I calculate.
So does the acid RtA DE benefit from t2 devotion maps. Though it still sucks now, it would go even worse if use Obelisk.

Another reason is that RtA Aegis items have low flat and % retal damage. For example, Skybreach Bulwark. As for Acid variant, RIP Sentinel of the Three. :pray:

PS: Do you think Ravager or Calla kill time influence devs’ decision on “nerf or not” too bad? (Yes, I mean you, Fevered Rage!)

4 Likes
9

I know one skill that certainly doesn’t need its % RtA/s buffed.
Retal Sigils pseudo spam with all Sigils out :stuck_out_tongue:
I won’t spoil the number so that everyone can have fun calculating it.

10

curious that phys retal DE is faster SR compared to acid retal DE, since now Necro has acid RR for it :thinking: (and acid has faster :deer: time as expected)
Wonder if cold retal DE is possibility now :scorv:

11

YES!

1 Like
12

Cool build but the shield might be practically impossible :stuck_out_tongue:
Although Acid retal affixes wouldn’t be the end of the world if they rolled.

13

huh, did not expect not converting shield’s flat vit retal and go all in on fire conversion, but i guess it makes sense with the limited slots/no free instant modifier to full convert vit on single item :thinking:
but very nice :ok_hand:

“player dmg/retal build” :zantai:
image

oa meta affix nerf inc :scorv:

14

In fact, you dont have to do so. The build has in total 56 vit RR. It’s not very good but make it unworthy to change one fire retal piece for vit2cold conversion.

No matter! Let’s build another Hellborne RtA DE Defiler! :stuck_out_tongue:

2 Likes
15

No idea, but I think Zantai has become much more lenient and receptive to our feedback lately when it comes to endgame nerfs or buffs. As history of game balance shows nerfing builds that slightly overperform can sometimes put those builds firmly behind everything in the meta and they just remain there, forgotten. Examples: Avenger Archon - from a top1-3 build to not even a top50 build. Same with Korba.
Also definition of “overperformance” stretches with every patch because everything gets inevitably power crept.

1 Like
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Pity for Avenger set.

Very glad to see that if it is true. Here is some of my additional thoughts:

  1. As for the systematical issue: tune down % retal damage on Hyrian, Affliction, Auttumn Boar, Targo and Messenger by 30%, Kraken by 40%, increase % retal damage on Obelisk and Vire by 40% and buff their procs a little bit. This results in: ①t2 devotion map and t3 devotion will have their own strengths and weaknesses. t2 map have higher HP, OA/DA, and more RtA. t3 map have higher (than t2 map) % retal damage. ②The 3 retal builds in the latest top20 list got 6-8% final damage nerf, which is pretty close to a reasonable level. Meanwhile, those who pick either Obelisk or Vire won’t be really affected, and those who pick both Obelisk and Vire (physical retal build) get a little buff (and they deserve it). ③Prevent further abusing of Hellborne.
  2. Why not add more retal support to Necro and Arcanist? (and maybe Nightblade?)
  3. After tuning devotion and classes. Start on DE and Aegis and Blitz and CT and so on. BWC (I remember it is a top40 build but doesn’t make it top20) is just fine and to my knowledge it was not affected by suggestion 1.
  4. If there is enough time, rework some incomprehensible RtA thing such as RtA forcewave.
17

Yeah just tried it with max mirror and fastest cooldown I could get. Very meh

18

Does anyone here know / have Acid Retal DAR build (the best one if possible) and could share?
I’m not theorycrafting if it’s done already and it probably is but I’d like to have a look.

19

KingRed, considering how strong the Dawnbreaker warder became/made it to nr1 spot, do you guys/Chinese community have an updated lightning/retal BWC elementalist/shieldbreaker?
i only spotted a commando in the top20 test sheet, but i’d assume the other class would be stronger from RR/crit scaling? :thinking:

20

Your comment made me waste 20 minutes in grimtools:

hp is low and build won’t be anything mind blowing but should work (maybe, it’s just a sketch)

EDIT: Ideally roll Dread Lord’s on one of the rings or on medal for some extra sustain
EDIT 2: changed it up a bit

1 Like