A friendly reminder about balancing elite/ultimate

http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showpost.php?p=319529&postcount=133
http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?p=320156#post320156

Only about 3% of the people who invest in Grim Dawn will even really bother with ultimate and replaying the game.

Medierra’s choice to have a good portion of his team’s work go into elite and ultimate is a gift to us. We are lucky that despite having such a small team he personally enjoys leaning the game toward hardcore gamer’s needs and wants.

3%. When I learned this my head exploded; it was dramatically less than I had imagined. The vast majority of people on this forum who post more than a few times represent the definition of the loud majority.

I’m not posting this to make anyone feel like their feedback is invalid, quite the opposite. I’d just like to remind people that it’s only logical to be gracious for the work being put into game balance and the “end-game” since only ~3% of us are going to really experience it anyway. ~9% of us will touch upon it.

Crate could have spent the majority of their time just fleshing out normal and it’d technically make more sense from a statistical point of view.

I also want to say that 1.0.0.2 part 2 has done a lot to improve ultimate. People bitching about things being easier can relax, difficulty can be added in later in more interesting forms than just a need for tons of hp, hp regen, and resists.

So for everyone complaining that something in elite/ultimate is too hard or too easy, try to remember that you’re technically lucky it’s being looked at at all.

I know it’s irritating when a game you love falls short of your standards, but it’s a team of 10 people focusing on content that most of their customers won’t even play with anyway…

This has been your Be-Kind-To-Developers PSA. Thank you for reading.

Tbqh, Elite feels like a filler difficulty anyway.

You can’t make me!

Tbqh, Elite feels like a filler difficulty anyway.
Elite is 2015 Veteran.

Friendly reminder for insane and unbalanced difficulty lovers:

Mods are comming up, so don’t worry, because you can make so that even the training dummy can oneshot you.

And as we all know that means, it can wear you down over 15 minutes without it dying once :smiley:

I’ve just calculated time played stats using http://steamspy.com/app/219990 and 66.53% of owners have less than 30 hours of a game time.

I have a far better idea… >:)

:wink:

Can you fight yourself? I always thought that would be interesting in an ARPG since you tend to dole out much, much more damage than you could handle.

Sure, just give all mobs damage reflect.

And only builds that’ll somewhat feel it are physical damage ones.

On my vitality conjurer I stopped caring completely about reflecting heros. Have 80% resist and whatever comes through is offset by the lifesteal. A bit boring, to be really honest.

This was what I considered instantly. Grim Dawn had a lengthy pre-release, however many players (including myself) did not start playing until the actual game had come out.

Due to this, getting to the point where we can run elite is going to take time. I am just now able to push a little with my conjurer, however not getting much gear drops for my class is holding me back, the loot system seems to want me to play soldier, as I already have full epic lvl 50 gear (as a lvl 52 conjurer).

I expect the number of players on elite and ultimate to increase in a linear fashion as the game ages post release.

Again, while the number above will go up, it won’t go up by as much as you think.

A vast populations of players will play through normal at a slow pace and then quit forever.

I don’t understand, as I’m so different I have trouble empathizing, but the statistic remains fact. Ultimate will be cared about by a fraction of the player-base buying the game.

As medierra said before, while hardcore players will put in more hours, does it average out to being 30x more than the average player? No.

I don’t understand how people can not want to play ultimate. It’s like not finishing the game. I love trying to make the best possible character I can and finishing all content. And if the game is great like this then make many characters and repeat. I played when the game was fully released and am currently in act 3 of ultimate 0 deaths so far with my new build and I’m enjoying it so much.

It’s pretty easy to understand. Most people don’t take their games all that seriously and have limited play time. The end. And by play time, I’m including reading guides and forums time. Most people are not reading anything. They load the game and have fun with it. That’s it. This is standard typical mind fallacy…

I’ve been saying this last year. It becomes pretty obvious once you hear enough stats from enough companies. The stats are so insane you can give them to people and they’ll refuse to believe it. WoW, Destiny, it’s all the same. Only the elite speaking, mostly non-elite playing, confused feedback, especially for companies that forget about the fact that most of their playerbase is silent.

That’s why I really don’t give that much credence to feedback. There’s obviously value in that, but the game designers need their own systems and a head on their shoulders to know how to design a game without needing players to tell them what they want, because players will come back with very biased and conflicting feedback, and a lot of the time it’s not the right players.

That being said, one should be careful with discounting the hardcore* section of the game or the hardcore playerbase as useless. What’s important to note is that the hardcore portion of the game serves different purposes for different groups of people: the hardcore tend to see hardcore content as their core game and they plan their play experience around it. The non-hardcore see the hardcore content as VIP content they hope to get to or see one day but do not necessarily expect. It’s also often the region relative to which people will try to balance their playstyle.

There’s a decent amount of value to the latter for the average player. I will most probably not see Ultimate anytime soon: I don’t play a lot, I don’t understand the game very well, and I play in the Hardcore mode. Furthermore, the builds I roll with are often not very optimized on purpose. I will probably be spending most of my time in Elite, but nonetheless there’s a lot of value in having that Ultimate difficulty available as the final potential area I may one day end up in, especially if I luck out and build something strong. Of course, I’m not too representative of the average group, either, but most people don’t want to play a game that ends nowhere. On the other hand, most people also do not need a super evolved endgame, either.

What I wish people would do is give more space for non-hardcore feedback. We have a thread right now from a guy complaining about being one shot by some boss. Everyone keeps trying to give him advice and figure out his build. Talk about missing the point. It’s very hard to get proper non-hardcore feedback on a forum full of hardcore players who discount and disparage non-hardcore experiences.

The real trap here is if developers take the completely long-term approach and only balance the beginning or the end. I.e., if they make the intermediate difficulties clunky or awkward due to not paying attention to them. Players don’t want to have to suffer while looking forward to Ultimate. You do want to make sure your Normal/Veteran/Elite feels good. And you don’t want to kick people off the curve too much along the way.

A lot of players are lost in the beginning more than the end. The hardcore players will quit because of the end, but other players tend to quit because some small thing in the beginning threw them off. On the other hand, sometimes you do not want certain kinds of players in your game, so you may want to do such things on purpose.

For some reason, whenever companies focus too much on business sense, games tend to deteriorate. After all, games are works of art, there’s only so much business sense you can interject into them. At that point, you’re making a very different game for a very different audience, even if it’s very profitable. I generally believe great games developers ultimately make games for themselves, and the best games will not be profitable as the more bland and targeted games.

*hardcore used to denote highly devoted and involved level of play, not to be confused with permadeath mode.

I completely concur actually. Ever since medierra posted the statistics I’ve been more open minded about softening up aspects of the game. Especially pre-ultimate.

I already tried to listen to all feedback and think whether or not it made the game more fun or interesting, but upon realizing what a small fraction makes it to the end I realized I had to shift my perspective further.

I want the game to encourage players to try to reach the end of ultimate. Challenge can always be added back in via challenge dungeons, new enemy mechanics and mods. But the main storyline content should be accessible to players.

I LOVE that grim dawn has a hardcore gamer slant. But the hardcore gamers forget that if it slants too hard into what they want it will just alienate the vast majority of players. I plan on modding in a way that gives both parties what they enjoy. And I have loosened up more about my opinions since they tend to be a bit more for the 3% of gamers side of things.

I think, ideally, the game could help less hardcore gamers see the fun of trying out a more hardcore approach, but for that to happen it needs to be a nice curve, not an abrupt hell spike. I like the direction of updates so far.

And where I said I don’t understand, I meant I do understand but I find that way of playing so bland I simply can’t empathize. So rather, I find the statistic disappointing.

I find it interesting that you consider earlier game to be bland, when Ultimate always sounds rather bland to me. The further you get into the game, the more you have to put everything into resistances and defense and the less of your skills you can have fun with. More and more it seems to become an exercise in how many defenses you can stick on your character.

Remember that for most normal people, Elite (even Veteran) is already challenging enough!

This is part of it for me. I can do Ultimate if I trend towards a certain build configuration but I find it bland since I’m working at a reduced skill combination selection.

This is compounded by the fact that I have to complete the same content three times over to finish one character. I really think the release of the extra difficulties as a way to progress character builds works against one of the primary drivers, building characters.

By the time I’ve completed one character I just feel burned out at the thought of having to iterate over the same content x3 again. Essentially for every one character I’m building now I used to be able to build three in the same time span, which I found much more enjoyable and kept me more engaged in the game since it varied the play experience more.

These days I find myself playing the game less and less. Some of that’s probably because I’ve been playing for so long but I noticed a mark decrease in my enjoyment of the game since they released Elite/Ultimate. I get impatient slogging through Ultimate but I feel compelled to complete the character. It’s not the type of dilemma or choice that I really feel good about since I lose out either way.

I find Elite easier than Vet. I dont know why but i am storming through Elite much faster and better than I did in vet (actually ended up going back to normal for most of the game around act 2 or 3.