Arcane Still Needs Some Serious Work

Grim Dawn Ideas and Feedback
1

The changes to Arcane from 1.2 were very welcome. However, there are still plenty of situations where Arcane enemies feel “bullshity” and detract from the enjoyment of the game.
As a gamer, I love a challenge. But Arcane enemies often feel like an unfair one.

Some specific problems:

A) Graphics wise? Nothings happens when you get hit. There’s only a tiny purple debuff icon in the bottom left corner of the screen which no one will notice except for people who expect to be Arcane’d in the first place and specifically go look for the purple icon. In the middle of a crowded fight, this will get unnoticed.

B) Audio wise? A subtle and generic “boom” sound effect is played. This sound is re-used across the game and can be confused with a variety of other things happening on screen, especially in the middle of a crowded fight. Also sometimes the sound does not play at all when multiple other sounds are being played (middle of a crowded fight). Or maybe I’m just not hearing it.

C) Some Arcane enemies are impossible to evade even with perfect timing. Vollarius ~ Arcane is the worst example: a Wendigo type enemy that is very short. Because of its low height, the arcane projectile is also spawned at low height. If the player is at melee range, they will get instantly hit with zero time to react, dodge, or evade.
The counter-example is Archanis ~ Arcane - an “aetherial-mountain” enemy that is very tall. Because of its height, the arcane projectile is also spawned up in the sky and needs about a second to fall down to the ground and hit the player even at melee range. So you have a 1-second window to evade after you hear the arcane “boom” sound. IF you hear it…
It feels arbitrary and unfair that some arcane enemies are easily evadable and others are impossible. Don’t even get me started on Loxmere…

Some suggestions:

A) Add an obvious graphical cue to tell the player they’ve been arcaned and need to run! It could be the Sundered “red-lines” screen effect but purple or blue. Or perhaps something more subtle but visible in the center of the screen, where the player’s eyes are focused on. Something that would stand out in the middle of a crowd (which is precisely where being arcaned is the most dangerous!)

B) Change the “arcane projectile fired” sound to be something more loud and distinct. Grava’Thul’s arcane-attack sound works a lot better, and, if changed, things would be consistent: all arcane sounds would sound the same in the game. The only problem then is that Occultist’s Doom Bolt uses the same sound, so it could be confused with that. But it would still feel like a massive improvement.

C) Make all arcane projectiles spawn at the same height. Archanis ~ Arcane is an excellent example of a good height and gives the player a small margin of time to evade after they hear the sound cue. In my opinion this should also be applied to Loxmere: a projectile spawns at a good height when he hits his Shadow Strike or something. I’m not sure that this could be applied to Grava because his arcane balls are homing; maybe in the crucible version of Grava.

Don’t get me wrong with all this criticism; I love Grim Dawn and Crate, and nothing would make me happier than seeing some of these issues improved, making GD an even better game going forwards into the future :slight_smile:

Hope this helps in some way.

2 Likes
2

:neutral_face:

technically i don’t think they are bad suggestions

but part of me can’t help be “annoyed” by the notion of yet again making arcanes easier in terms of interaction :sweat_smile: (felt ever since 1.2 arcanes became extremely trivial and meaningless in threat) - and i most definitely dont’ think Lox should get regular arcane projectile, he should stay special, specially since he’s already relegated to his own little fixed corner of the map now

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3

I’ve been hit by null twice in the last 100 hours of game time, up to SR85. Never from Grava, always from a giant pack when I either had to kite or when the arcane enemy came in later and I didn’t focus them down. Didn’t die either time.

I echo gnome, I don’t think your suggestions are bad, but null is really not a challenging mechanic. If it is for you, it’s a skill or build issue. Arcane enemies are always target #1. There’s a 6-8 ish second delay between aggro and when enemies cast null. Plenty of time to kill them, unless your build is too AoE heavy and doesn’t have solid single target damage. It’s the risk you run if you build without single target dps. And in that case, if it’s been 5 seconds and you haven’t killed them, hit evade/movement ability and run away until the orb goes away.

Your suggestions aren’t bad, just unnecessary and a circumstance of…git gud. Sorry friend.

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4

Since being ‘Nullified’ is objectively scarier than being ‘Sundered’, I can get behind:

In the same visual clarity that the Sunder ‘curse’ effect has.

I’ll also repeat what I stated (long ago) on the 1.2 playtest, that I think there should also be a audio-visual indicator when your max resistances are being breached.

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5

None of your suggestions are necessary, just look at the screen and you will notice that you do not have any skills above your life bar. Regarding the resistances, it is also not worth it, you just have to overcome the resistances.

6

Absolutely 100% no.

Out of all the current and popular ARPGs out there, I feel that GD is the most forgiving when getting hit by things you are meant to avoid. Everything else, on other games, will just obliterate you most, if not all the time. At least you have an opportunity to try and escape here as Sunder and Arcane are not what kills you. It’s what happens after that does.

Grava has a huge wind up animation and orbs can be disrupted by terrain.

Lox is a special case and can be completely avoided. With practice you can also bait the attack and dps him down before the next null.

Arcane mobs basically have a light bulb over their head and should be prioritized. The timing (for the most part) of when they null can be learned with practice. They don’t track either like Grava.

Suggestions:

Remove arcane/sunder via a mod

Learn to beat it.

2 Likes
7

I swear some people won’t rest until Arcane enemies get a huge sign above them that says “ARCANE HERO HERE, BE CAREFUL” and an on-screen notification with sirens when the nullify orb is casted.

Crate added a very obvious nullify icon above their heads, which is also acts as the freaking nullifying projectile. How more obvious do you want it to be?

1 Like
8

You expect challenge from a game to come from it’s user interface? I’m sure you don’t.
People don’t enjoy a game because it has “bad controls”, or in this case “bad signaling”. Controls and signaling should be polished, consistent, and easy to learn for new players. Then, the challenge should come from the puzzle / strategy / action / timing elements that the game offers.
Sound cue + expectation to evade in 1 second = a good timing element for the player to engage in, and suffer the consequences if they fail. But this doesn’t always apply to Arcane. Sometimes it’s 0 seconds. Sometimes there’s no cue.
None of the suggestions proposed will make Arcane functionally easier; only better telegraphed. But Arcane attacks will still have exactly the same devastating consequences as before.

Precisely. Being nullified is deadlier than being sundered. Sunder will increase damage taken by 50% on average. Removing auras can increase damage taken by 300%, depending on the build.
Yet sunder is very clearly telegraphed (both before and after it happens) but being nullified is not. Sure, the monsters have an icon above their head. But they can arcane-attack at a random interval from 3 to 15 seconds after wake up, and there’s no signaling before nor after it happens. This is the problem, which affects new players learning the game the most.

85? That’s adorable, friend! :joy: Almost as adorable as the look on your face when if you reach SR100 and finally realize you can’t always kill arcane groups in 5 seconds. You know who else can’t kill arcane groups in 5 seconds? New players, learning about the game’s systems. This is where the problems lie.

Do you mean that a player should look at the bottom-left corner of the screen during the 4-second window when they already know, in hindsight, that they’ve been arcaned… so they can know they’ve been arcaned?
Or do you mean that a player should always be looking at the bottom-left corner of the screen the entire play session?
Because neither make sense. Thanks for the example of how my suggestions are necessary.

100% useless, like your entire post.
Suggestion for you: read the original post before writing, and try to pay attention to the specifics points being discussed. It’s not hard. For most people.

None of the issues refer to the signaling above monsters. Did you read the specific points of the original post…?

… well. Guess not.

This thread is not about veteran gamers who played the game for 10k hours and never get arcaned anymore. Problems with signaling make it difficult for new players to learn the game.

So try overcome your fear of change and put yourself in the shoes of a new player. A new player will easily learn about sunder through clear signaling, but will be presented with mixed signals when it comes to learning about arcane.

A new player will:
A) Have no visual cues before/after being arcane’d.
B) Have inconsistent sound cues before/after being arcane’d.
C) Experience random arcane attacks that are un-evadable.

There still isn’t a single response that dismisses these 3 specific problems, or proposes alternate solutions for them. I’m not holding my breath.

2 Likes
9

I’m sure your strategy of systematically reacting like an ill tempered child to everyone who criticizes your ideas will serve you well on this forum and in life.

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Enough. If you have nothing constructive to add to the discussion then don’t bother posting.

11

Are you saying that to me? The only poster being hostile and worthy of that remark from a moderator is the OP, so color me confused.

12

Your comment adds nothing to the discussion.

13

Let me clarify how it’s relevant, then:

  1. OP posts a suggestion for changes.

  2. Numerous people disagree with the underlying reason for the changes.

  3. OP systematically quotes every poster that disagrees with him or her and attacks them with condescension, chiding, sarcasm, rudeness, and general hostility.

I point out this is childish behavior, because OP’s behavior in #3 is the behavior we should discourage on forums and say “enough” to, as well that even if your idea isn’t a good one, being likeable is a large part of selling your idea to people. Being extremely hostile to every person who politely disagrees with you is a great way to ensure no one changes their mind and supports your idea. If OP really wants to see this change, being a jerk to everyone who questions the idea is bad for his cause.

I’ll leave it at that, like an adult.

14

i expect a game like this to have a certain amount of element of player attention…
Arcanes deal almost no dmg, your buffs turn off and on automatically (doesnt’ stay off very long) - to the point arcanes are basically not a threat anymore…
it has a symbol denoting its “danger”/attention worthiness already
my main complaint is centred around making player pay less and less attention to basic stuff - no wonder they are missing obvious cues elsewhere if this is the level of highlighting expected for “minor” encounters

signaling is fine, it’s more than fine because of the nulli overhaul even?

what need to evade?

it’s never 0 seconds because they have a min timer for when they can nulli

“that’s making them functionally easier” - the symbol overhead alone, even without the automatic buff turn on; made them easier (much easier)

that’s also part of my point; their attacks are not devastating anymore… :neutral_face:

disagree - i’m eating nullies like it’s desserts these days, to the point it made me sad and mention several times since 1.2 that arcanes feel like they’ve been diminished

yes, they will, they will have 2
1 being the enemy symbol itself, and yes i get that you don’t think it counts for the specific effect but it sorta does
as someone mentioned their row of buffs vanishing in itself is also a visual cue, even if you disagree or feel it’s not enough, it’s still visual cue
^i would argue it’s even a significant visual cue because that’s exactly the type of stuff a player should be somewhat able to pay attention to/notice, even if it’s a big screen or there is lots going on
if you can see your HP bar is at 30% what’s the deal with being unable to see your buffs are no longer there, they are further up on the UI element you’re “constantly” watching/having an eye on the peripheral

they aren’t more random than others tho, and they are more evadable than those others, and they have the same no telegraph/no highlight as similar “out of nowhere” as them too. Healers dont’ announce their heal, shadow strikes or big punches or stabs aren’t announced either nor evadeable in close range, shotguns or big slaps that can easily hit hard and be lethal - nulli is a slow moving projectile you can even jump over on non melee, so it has more evade potential than any other regular dangerous attack
*you can say it’s unfair to put them on the scope as other regular strong/hard attacks because of the “wider” effect it has, but again, i’m eating nullies left and right like never before, and the auto toggle system seems like plenty grace to not make melee evade a concern/necessity either - buffs disappear, then you evade
(and yes buffs should be something player pays attention to, imo, it’s not too big of an ask i think/“unreasonable”)

like i said, i dont’ think on a technical level the suggestions are bad,
but i also don’t see how there is in no way where this doesn’t make them easier to engage with/“diminishes them further”, 1.2 changes already made them easier, and you’re adding triple layers of extra highlights and pre-attack notification than 1.2 did :sweat_smile:
so if the aim is to make them easier for beginners’ sake, that’s it

i find it a bit disingenuous to highlight this as a beginner/non veteran issue; yet daring to invoke sr 100
i find it doubly troublesome even including it; balancing is not and should not be done with SR 100 in mind, so arcane taking 10mins to kill there is and should be 100% irrelevant to any enemy encounter effects, despite of build or player beginner or veteran status

3 Likes
15

I assume Zantai at this point is just over trying to make Null heroes as obvious as possible. He gave them a big symbol over their heads to make them more noticeable in a crowd, made the null projectile very slow and made it so that the buffs are turned off for only five seconds instead of forcing the player to stop and turn them on manually.

I’m not that big a fan of null heroes, but i think any other changes to make them even easier is just overkill at this point. They are fine as is, leave them alone.

If anything other hero types need buffs to be more dangerous because a lot of them are just a more beefy regular mob.

2 Likes
16

he had to nerf regenerators, twice?, because people complained :sweat_smile:
but yea, i’m kinda with you there,
it sorta stands out a bit oddly you have these non dangerous heroes, but still with symbols as if they are worthy of attention, and ofc lots of hero types without symbols too
*personally think it’s funny that stuff like defender and vampiric gets symbol, why?, but supporters/non timewarped healers or non regenerator healers didn’t get symbols - being arguably different in “annoyance levels”/encounter significance

17

The moment an arcane monster wakes up does not = the moment they fire the arcane ball which you need to evade. That moment can be 3 seconds later or 15 seconds later depending on their speed, mutators, how far they are from you, enemy positioning, terrain, enemy AI, etc. It’s unpredictable. You need to wait a random amount of time for it to launch it’s attack at you. And that has almost no signaling at all. And that is the moment the player is expected to evade. In the case of Vollarius ~ Arcane for example, this is zero seconds if you are in melee range, as I mentioned in the OP. With other monsters you have 2 seconds even at melee range. It’s a problem with monster height, I believe.

I guess we’ll agree to disagree. My experience is the opposite of yours. I can tank all kind of Sunders like it’s nothing, but I get more punished for nullifies. Depends on the build of course.

Well I have the health bar on top my character, I notice my health bar without moving my eyes. I’m looking at the center of the screen while playing a game, like most people I assume. I occasionally look down to check some skill cooldowns, but I’m not looking there all the time to notice the 5 second window where I have no buffs with no cues otherwise.

Yes they are much more random, because of the problem with Vollarius ~ Arcane that I’ve mentioned before (and in the OP).

Yeah you’re right, it’s pretty stupid to mention SR. But I was just thoroughly entertained by the previous mention of SR85 that I couldn’t resist :joy: anyway I agree SR has nothing to do with all this. I just don’t expect all newbie players in their learning period to kill all arcanes in 5 seconds.

Yeah I understand this, as well as your other points.

18

What’s useless is this post and your stance. Far to often there are these garbage suggestions to change something that a player should, instead, learn to combat or alter on their own.

Why would I want to further read useless suggestions? Hard or not.

Not a single person needs to read the OP again because all of the ideas are unneeded and useless to combat a mechanic that you already have solutions for.

Edit: I can’t even remember the last time an arcane mob nulled me. To do anything else to this modifier will just further dilute the challenge it was meant to have.

It is clear where the combativeness started from. Instead of blanket statement everyone, especially those who were attacked first, perhaps moderation should start at the original poster as they seem to not have the capacity to be argued against.

19

exactly “that is the point”

no, it can’t - you even touch on why above

no, it’s not - it’s an option for ranged chars, nulli has the option to be evadable, but isn’t the expectation, that’s why your buffs turn on and off on their own - which signals the time you should evade

now i’m not even sure what you’re talking about? - in melee range you have the same time, since you’re in close range enemy height doesnt’ dictate this as the projectile is fired “in you”
so you must mean is not melee but close range? or something else?

no? i think you’re either misunderstanding what i’m referring to (instant attacks) or you’re meaning something else entirely distance related/when saying melee vs arcane
the attacks i’m referring to would equate to hit scan attacks, non projectile non windup; you basically can’t avoid these in melee no matter what
you’re somehow saying nulli balls are fired slower/more dodgeable depending on the enemy type “in melee”; which doesn’t make sense since they get fired in you, and either way the attacks i’m referring to are the same type of random or more unavoidable being actually instant and not a potential projectile dodge

the key there was you were talking to a “new” player with just 100h under their belt, that’s the part you should have latched on to (imo)

so we do agree, we just disagree weather arcanes should or should not in effect become easier - this is fine, i can live with that
like i said, i don’t think they are technically bad suggestions (i love my technicalities as you might have noted in my posts), i just dislike the notion of making an enemy “less dangerous” again :+1:

20

True… There should be an icon like for sunder…