Ahhh, The diversity argument on an unrelated thread prompted me to start this discussion in this section.
Does the Bat + Ghoul meta suggest that these devotions need some [downward] tweaks? Bat often performs in the realm of T3. Perhaps it should have the requirements of a T3? Perhaps Ghoul needs increased requirements, as well?
No, they’re fine.
Also, what sense does it make for a T1 devotion to have a T3 req? They are also not gonna change reqs out of nowhere, specially it’s both T1 reqs which all T1 only have one affinity point req.
Why you have the utmost desire to create whole new era of #deadbuilds? 
Does this really need explaining?
No because it’s absolutely ridiculous. T3 require minimum 25 points, Ghoul and Bat require 1. These overly drastic measures are unnecessary and over the top.
Exactly - if it (or the combo) often performs in the realm of T3…then perhaps it is not positioned appropriately.
Edit:
Anyways, I was hoping more for a concrete conversation on Bat/Ghoul meta, rather than the T1/T3 argument. So my bad on that aspect.
You wouldn’t even know if it would fix anything. Also, you have to provide evidence that they are actually performing on a T3 level.
The sole reason they are used by a lot of builds is because they are a single point req. You can just splash them anywhere. Doesn’t mean the devotions themselves are broken.
Bat proc has the advantage of 100% pass-through, mid-range heal, short cd, easy leech numbers.
I personally think the CD should be upped to around 1s…and %WD reduced.
Bat devotion also gives 3% adcth, which is in demand by everything. Not to mention it provides 5 colors of a very useful type for 5 nodes.
(But I know this will be a sensitive issue and ghoul is even more sensitive.)
Huh? Bat gives 2 different colours only on completion: Eldritch (green 3) and Chaos (red 2). No Constellation gives more than 2 different colours on completion. Plenty of other T1 constellations give 2 different colours as well and a similar number of points for those colours.
I’ve never used Bat myself because I haven’t made any vitality/bleed builds.
Bat is used because there simply aren’t alternatives.
pyran builds were using adcth on stormfire FFS and that set is flooded with a lot of health regen
You adcth, you play a vit build or you headless chicken and pray on regen. Bat and ghoul are simply the easiest options to access (and in good colors. Toad isn’t worth a mention when the lower right still has a lot of lackluster devos)
Nerfs cut the legs off all the builds that are simply getting by with bat. It doesn’t address the fact that they’re going to bat because no other appealing options exist for sustain.
My mind might play tricks…but I believe the original Falcon had adcth…and was removed for obvious reasons.
Where ghoul and specially bat excels, it’s at being the few direct high healing sources (WD on heal is great + bat has multi hitting, pierce, high %total damage leech and ghoul is almost bis on every %WD builds).
Why aren’t other options taken? Poor or lack-luster nods/don’t fit the build’s T3 path.
-Toad has little heal and green/purple based + it’s nods are pretty terrible.
-Celestial Lotus’s only interesting nod is the %phys, but has no source of good regen to fit caster (and poor energy regen)
-Harvestmen’s scythe’s has decent nods, but scattered on 6!!! nods and without any devotion power, is eclipsed by things, such as Giant and ToL.
-Lizard has decent nods, but without any adcth or devotion power, ghoul and bat will be choosen instead.
Because Bat can also be linked to castable/dots/debuffs skills, which will independantly serve as a source of healing, it’s a no brainer.
Had bat been only given to melee/rang based skills, history would be slightly different.
But I believe it’s a little too late to change things (at least nerf-wise). Proper T1 constellations underlined could recieve buffs…but would it really help? Bat and ghoul already have their use.
It had 70% weapon damage and because it shotguns, it would heal by a lot with ADCTH on gear and other devotions. It also had no CD or it was very low, like 0,5 secs.
Ok, lol 70% wd…as much as Blind Fury 
But it never had adcth then? I must of mixed the healing power from the raw damage then, thanks for the clarification.
Ghoul gives +3 affinity for 5 points, while many devotions give +5-6 affinity for same 5 points. Ghoul is close to T2 devotions on that.
As for Bat - yes, proc is great, but maybe it’s procs from other T1 devotions with active powers suck SO badly that no one ever considers using them? Every active devotion require a certain skill to be bound on. How about Tsunami? Bull? Scorpion? Eye of guardian? Fiend? Imp? Players always ignore those cause they’re too weak.
Maybe people who make builds here do, but that doesn’t mean everyone else does. I’ve used Scorpion, Eye and Fiend a lot in my builds.
Recently someone ask a question why I am not using Bat in my acid Witch Hunter? But acid have so many procs, it’s tough to include them all
But on lot of builds, I just start my devotion map straight with it. It’s one of the devotions I use the most. But still my cold melee don’t have it, acid too. Surprisingly Mad Lee vitality build even skip it. So as usual is matter of personal opinion.
Literally every devo you mentioned is in top builds for respective dmg types lol.
@hammyhamster1: CC-res imo is the crux of the issue here. Not bat or ghoul. There are merely a symptom of the current state of things.
Who ignores these? Who ignores Flame Torrent, one of the best devotion procs in the game? Same for Aetherfire.
I ignore imp. It could honestly use a push in its aoe if you ask me.
EDIT: can’t spell gimped without imp. 
