Bleed Cadence Discussion

[medea_fleecestealer]

Ahem, this is not a debate about whether to use Crucible or SR for build metas.

Examples of constructive and useful feedback:

• I’d never use item X because item Y does the same thing, only better
• I’d never use item X even though I want to, but item Y has bonuses/a proc that is too critical to make my build functional
• I’d never use item X in my build (Grimtools link appreciated) because it leaves a big gap in my resists
• I disagree about earlier comments about item X. I use it in my build and it fits perfectly
• I agree about item X. I tried it in my build and item Y always yielded better results

Back on topic folks.

[Rhylthar]

Bleeding Vindicator can clear SR 65-66. Are they both equal? Are they both good builds? Is it ok for synergetic non-meme build to perform at the level of a total meme?

SR 85. Fixed it for you.

Back on topic, hope Zantai don´t mind if I slightly changed a quotation:

I’d never use another set because Bloodrager does the same thing, only better by far!

And therefore a change to Blood Knight would be welcome. Or No, as I said, no change because a change would perhaps overload it/would be contrary to the intent (e. g. the conversions would be not very good for Bleeding I think), better a “Sister Set”.

[sir_spanksalot]

Also, that “clears SR 65-66 without any issues” bullshit should stop being used as a measuring stick. All kinds of meme builds clear SR 65-66 without any issues.

And the problem with this is? SR 65-66 is still endgame content, it is far beyond what 99% of the playerbase will see. That it doesn’t push the literal top end that you want does not mean that builds that do it are bad by any means. Not all builds are created equal.

I’m satisfied with builds that can clear SR 65-66 that they are viable at all - not that they are S+ tier.

The problem with this is aggroabuse mate. That sorta cheese really blurs the line separating good and bad builds

EDIT: sorry for going off tangent. I’ll stop.

[toapeiron]

Oh, look. It’s Lee imposing a measuring stick that no one ever asked for. Can we give him his own whine corner?

[medea_fleecestealer]

This is NOT a discussion about builds and metas. Take this to another thread please and stay on topic in this one.

[sir_spanksalot]

Well, in all fairness Medea, builds/meta do determine how items should be rebalanced.

It’s rather difficult to suggest changes to items without delving a little into why they need to be changed.

[toapeiron]

The issue is that it’s derailing into a pointless discussion consisting on madlee moving the goalposts about build performance.

[Rhylthar]

@Zantai:
Honest question (I don´t want to be disrespectful by posting it again without asking):
Should I post my request for Blood Knight Set again to other thread (don´t know, if you want to collect all things there) or is it enough standing here?

[sir_spanksalot]

I disagree, mate. I mean, it’s difficult to use SR as a means to ascertain what exactly constitutes “top tier” vs “in need of buffs,” especially when Z hasn’t informed us of these thresholds. (E.g. 7:30 in the hands of a good pilot is top tier in the crucible, wth anything slower than thay requiring some buffs, and anything below 6min being OP).

The closest thing to a line in the sand for SR is this: only the strongest builds can take on 75-76. But this was also announced back when aggroabuse had yet to be discovered.

Z is clearly fine with aggroabuse existing as no changes have been made to combat the “problem” (e.g. shrinking the size of boss chunk maps).

But in so doing, no one can reliably use SR as a means to argue for buffs/nerfs to a build. And this in reflected in how balances tend to center around Cr performance.

P.S: the last paragraph is why I think this post is relevant to the thread. Apologies in advance if t isn’t, Medea.

[Evil_Baka]

especially when Z hasn’t informed us of these thresholds. (E.g. 7:30 in the hands of a good pilot is top tier in the crucible, wth anything slower than thay requiring some buffs, and anything below 6min being OP).

What we have been told regarding this is that high-end Crucible is similar in terms of enemy modifiers to SR55-60.

Now this does not necessarily mean any build that can clear SR 55-60 can clear Gladiator 150-170 or vice versa - both are different areas and have different build methodologies and I respect that but I do think it means a build has a good chance or clearing the other OR can be tweaked to accomplish it.

[medea_fleecestealer]

True, so discuss them in another thread or PM’s and when you’re all happy make your suggestions in the 1.1.6.0 itemisation thread as outlined in the OP of that thread. It’s simple.

[mad_lee]

What we have been told regarding this is that high-end Crucible is similar in terms of enemy modifiers to SR55-60 (can’t remember the exact number).

From my experience, 150-170 with buffs is as difficult as SR 75-76 just in a different way. Yes, you have buffs and enemies don’t hit as hard and have reduced hp pool, but you are constantly getting swarmed and debuffed a lot, whether in SR 75-76 enemies hit much harder and there are no buffs but you can always have favourable 1on1 duels without getting debuffed by everyone in 20 metre radius.

[sir_spanksalot]

What we have been told regarding this is that high-end Crucible is similar in terms of enemy modifiers to SR55-60.

Yes, but is this with/without abuse?

[Evil_Baka]

As in direct enemy scaling. What I got from what Zantai said is for example that stat-wise Kymon in Gladiator 150-170 is intended to be similar to how he is at SR 55-60. Whether that is right or I misunderstood his words I don’t know

If you want to check for yourself, I tracked the post I was thinking of down to here.

[sir_spanksalot]

It’s funny because I started that thread

I remember reading that, but didn’t put 2-‘n-2 together. Thanks for reminding me

Preface: not trying to argue, just trying to understand

If enemies in 65-66 match 170 in terms of difficulty, then surely it doesn’t make sense to use a spec dependent on aggroabuse to argue for validity?

[Evil_Baka]

dependent on aggroabuse to argue for validity?

As far as I know, neither of the builds or their creators that I cited above for Spellscourge/Rotgheist used aggro abuse. When they say that it’s good enough for 65-66, I take it to mean it’s capable of farming it at a comfortable/reasonable rate - nothing more, nothing less.

[Shoot2033]

My 5 cents:

As skill:(4.5-5x dmg modifier,extremly unrelyable source) +/-
1h:(In current state, almost all 1h weapons have low bleed base -> below average dmg from cadence and massive dmg loss from BA due this is not 2h) -
2h:(good base, but Cadence with 2h works very awful. Needed -1 attack from activation skill,i.e. every second attack) +/-
ranged:(works ok , but BA don’t works ) +/-
dual:(maybe should works good, but BM don’t have initial RR ->unplayble bleed as main base) +/-

Verdict: 3,5/10

[Nery]

If topic is Bleed Cadence than let’s write my opinion here. Cadence bleeding DW Blademaster is pretty squishy for Bloodrager build but I was surprised that damage is good despite no RR in either mastery. Perhaps it’s the nature of bleeding damage and also how low is bleeding resistance of enemies bosses.

DW Warder is far better with Savagery or even Blade Arc. And for 2H you have zero incentives to choose Cadence for main attack.

But the 2H problems lies with the skill itself. Cadence can overwrite DPS for DW melee but it’s very inefficient for 2H. And in Soldier tree you already have Blade Arc which is miles better, S&B is actually worth arguing about

[sir_spanksalot]

2h:(good base, but Cadence with 2h works very awful. Needed -1 attack from activation skill,i.e. every second attack)

I feel like the whole point of bleed cadence would be to apply a big ass DoT every few seconds, after all, bleed builds don’t necessarily rely on flat damage to kill things.

furthermore, i could potentially see a mod to cadence to make it more attractive for bleed specs (e.g. +300% bleed damage with +100% duration to cadence)

But this is just my $0.02 worth.

[Smitherson]

Bleed support seems more suited for Blood Knight (it’s right there in the name). It’ll finally validate the skill mod on guillotine and shift bleed builds away from pure Bloodrager. As mentioned before, gutripper could use skill mods/bonuses to Cadence to make it a more appealing alternative to Savagery; as it’s a ranged weapon, it also offers something besides the usual savagery/BA builds. It even gets around Cadence’s usual bad AoE on ranged builds with the mark of the farseer skill mod.