Was curious if anyone else was on board with this. I know these somewhat recently received buffs for their damage in ultimate ranks, but they still feel underwhelming to me. I have been playing a bomber man demo/arc for a long time and while I greatly enjoy it the damage feels a bit meh even with blackwater, canister, grenado, and mortar all pumped up to huge levels. Fwiw I am running a pretty defensive gear/devotion setup since demo/arc offers no form of sustain, but even then it feels a bit dirty that with 4 skills at high level both my aoe and single target damage feels lacking.
I would like to see raised base damages and/or some extra conversion from ulzuin’s chosen or added onto modifiers. Bigger aoe would be greatly appreciated in my book as well
Yah yah I should’ve clarified I am totally fine with BWC though I wouldn’t hate if it did a littttle more damage But yeah insane OA, pys dmg, and resist reduction with points into it.
Grenado is the worst for sure. Too much phys dmg, tiny radius, fire->lightning conversion on skyfire is not good at all. I also fail to understand the point of pierce damage on canister/grenado, the phys/trauma makes sense but the pierce is just wtf to me. Wish all the trauma was burn too, don’t play commando anymore but I don’t see how you manage to boost up the trauma on those to make them super effective.
I used to like grenado and canister back in early access. They were a lot of fun.
I have not thought much about how to fix canister. Grenado needs to do, mostly, base fire damage so that it scale with the normal demolitionist gear. Then the lightning conversion would actually make sense. Or perhaps the conversion goes in a transmuter.
The pierce damage if from the shrapnel. A lot of the “realistic” damage from bombs/grenades is not from the explosion itself (combustion/fire), but the explosion’s force that causes pieces of metal from the casing and other objects near the explosion that go flying… Improved casing says it increases its “concussive force” which cause blunt objects (along with the “improved casing” that would most likely shred/pierce better) to also go flying or even the target and thus be as source of internal trauma…although there is no knockback involved. Only stun if you the transmutter to turn it into a concussive bomb for an higher impact…which is different then increasing its concussive force of course…as it also does less damage…:rolleyes:
More of a realistic feel to it then matching the other damages in the build …well…little confused on the transmutter…but the improved casing has a realistic feel…
I myself have tried to use Grenado, and it flat out sucks. Eats too much mana, has a lousy radius, and does physical damage which doesn’t sit right with the gear accustom to that class. I always see fire and lightning mainly, but hardly ever physical.
Fire Strike and Stun Jacks also rellies on Physical Damage and both Temper and Ulzuin’s Chosen boosts your Physical Damage, so yeah, the Physical Damage is very well supported within the mastery… even more if you decide to go Commando.
Canister Bomb needs a 6 second cooldown. I don’t know what to do with its pierce damage though. If it’s changed to physical it’ll get badly affected by armour unless there’s a ton of conversion. Maybe just buff the overall damage or add weapon damage, etc.
Grenado is contradictive in concept and I just can’t get over it. It’s phys, so obviously intended for conversion (even Ulzuin’s Chosen got it now IIRC), but then you lose the massive 75% chance for +250% phy dmg bonus. But ok, let’s say I actually want a phys-focused grenado, Temper will improve it, but what else? No mastery actually provide +%phys except demo. Soldier has +%all damage, but it just feels weird. Another critical issue with phys Grenado is that if you accidentally throw it into reflective hero and crit + bonus phys procs you’re guaranteed to be dead, because you can’t defend yourself from the 40k+ phy damage nuke. I’m actually interested in grenadeer playstyle, but well, it’s not for hardcore, at all.
Then again, the only decent gear for Grenado is Barrelsmith Twins, and yup, it converts to fire. I think you can stack up to 60% with them.
As for Canister, I never considered it a stand-alone skill. Think OFF.
i totally agree with that. Demo can go caster with elemental or even chaos dmg, and they can go melee/ranged with physical dmg. it’s good as it is. i run a Commando based on physical dmg, using both Grenado and Canister along with FW, it works fine in Veteran.
ofc it may struggle a lot in later difficulties, but i suspect that it will be because phys dmg itself is unrewarding in GD, which should be changed. in particular reducing monster armor should be easier (percentile instead of flat could help here).
that said there’s still room from improvement for both skills. Skyfire Grenado is arguably the worst modifier of the entire game. should convert all the fire damage in lightning at least, or being totally reworked imo
Primal Bond - Shaman
Soldier gets Decorated Soldier as well though that’s a poor increase in power.
I agree, it’s not a great modifier. I am working on an Elementalist at the moment which is going full nuke with Grenado (no lmb) just nukes. It kinda works well with that but pretty much avoidable with every other build. Focusing Prism does ok to counter mana consumption (pretty much mandatory).
yeah, i wish Ulzuin’s Chosen (another skill which never been in the good place) gave flat -% cooldown and energy regen (flat or %), and maybe conversion from phys to fire. Making it great for fire caster at least. Skills with +% dmg types only kinda suck if they don’t bring anything else (i’m looking at you Merciless repertoire :p)
Ulzuin’s Chosen has conversion. But I would had preferred if Grenado was Fire/Pierce by default. It doesn’t make much sense anyway, Grenado is not a cannonball. The %conversion should be replaced with 20%fire resistance, +3%max fire resistance and X%less damage reflected, all to minimize reflection hazard. These parts do not need to work only with Grenade, Canister and Jacks.
Also imo 30% chance for 100% CDR is more fun than just 30% CDR.
But I would actually prefer it working sort of like Aldanar’s Vanity. E.g. you cast Grenado, it’s on cooldown, canister and jacks are refreshed. You cast canister - it’s on cooldown, Grenado is refreshed. Etc. No, it doesn’t equal 100% CDR because the effect will (I assume) trigger on damage dealt instead of on cast, and grenado/canister has a finite projectile speed. Also it might be viable to snuck in cooldown on the refreshing skill as well.
i missed that change, sorry :o. the problem is, you should have phys dmg somewhere, and not just for conversion purpose. you should be able to build a toon based on physical dmg viable on Ultimate. Demo, Soldier and Shaman are the three masteries providing physical dmg, seems good to me.
i think about it too when reading your post, sounds good.
i agree with the first part, though if it’s funnier it’s also harder to notice. making it work like Aldanar’s is a great idea if doable (because you can already remove SJ cooldown with modifier which should be problematic in that case).
edit : Dekaron’s suggestion is also very good, because it helps to solve the energy problem and in the same time makes the effect more noticeable. Good catch here !
The, to me at least, annoying part of grenado isn’t the damage or the modifiers, it’s the clunky throwing mechanic. Not sure something will ever change there, but there are plenty of other builds to play.
It’s now technically possible to convert 60% into fire and 30% into lightning as Elementalist with Barrelsmith. Sounds interesting. Phys dmg bonus will be wasted though. I’m still convinced that Grenado should be fire to begin with.
But yeah insane OA, pys dmg, and resist reduction with points into it.
I saw Zantai eyeing this thread the other day hoping he chimes in with his thoughts