I think this might be a lot more important than Devs realize when nerfing again…
That was a bit rude. You’re underestimating devs beyond reasonable. Especially since it’s been 5 years since the game’s release.
well, I don’t estimate anything.
From what I read here (also on older threads), it seems that as soon as there is another Killer-Build found, it gets nerfed somehow. Some people got so fedup with this that they angrily left the forum und stopped playing the game at all.
I question this to be a good approach.
The ‘piloting’ can make weaker builds seem strong. I train this piloting thing when I play, usually having at least 8 slots of skills which I trigger blindly with keyboard while kiting. I consider this part of the Fun of the game, but this way I have a much higher survivability of my toon as the setup justifies.
And I hope/wonder, if this is taken into account when nerfing again.
How about buffing a little more instead?
E.g. “ok, people find ways to get to Shard 110, why not give them some loot there” instead of nerfing stuff, so no one ever gets there again.
Continuous nerfing kills games. Just saying.
In my own opinion the so called nerfs aren’t that bad actually. It’s about balancing the game around all classes. Even if a nerf appears, there is always a rework possible and it’s not like builds aren’t viable at all anymore. Sorry for offtopic
How can you balance out Mirror/Mark/Nulli?
Why should you even?
I don’t see any issue with classes being a little weaker than others. The fun is to see, how you fare with them. But yeah, the whole thing might need it’s own thread.
Lemme clear up a few things, since apparently they weren’t mentioned in these few threads you’ve read.
The first is historically most patches had like 90%+ buffs consistently. Some of the very decent skills like Canister Bomb, Blade Arc, Primal Strike, Aether Ray, etc, were once considered shit skills. Very often these buffs were over the top and then came the nerfs.
The second is there’s some pretty real powercreep in GD. Crucible went from being barely able to complete it to speed running, and times were consistently going down with every patch. Currently we have situation when 4:30 build is already not impressing anyone, but two years ago any build below 6 min was impressive, and any build below 5 minutes was crazy. Same thing with SR, at some point competing SR75 was good enough.
And third, there’s no way piloting, no matter how skilled it is, can fix the raw power gaps between builds. I’m nowhere near in piloting to most people posting builds on the forum, but the difference between strong build and weak one is instantly felt.
The loot isn’t granted above 75 because people tend to make the highest awarding content into standard, and then pressure devs into making more builds to be able to do it. It may be a clunky, ugly solution but it’s not there just to set a threshold of “you’re not allowed to go higher”. In fact numerous current SR100 builds haven’t been nerfed in months.
Also, you say many people left, but for some reason I can’t recall a case when someone left because of nerfs, except that one chinese players case, and whether they quit the game afterwards or not is left open. Ironically it’s people who had their builds nerfed again and again who still play the game.
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I have to disagree on this.
Since the very reason I got into build making was because I couldn’t pilot Sigatrev’s builds even though they were touted as the best available at the time and no one was willing to deviate from that standard of piano-ish, micro heavy playstyle for Pet builds.
Weaker / Stronger is however, imo not the correct term here. But a skilled pilot can do wonders with a build that is very unforgiving to mistakes while in the average person’s hands, they might even struggle to do Crucible 150-170.
I know I am going to get wrecked with some of @romanN1’s glass cannons for eg.
But then, how do you balance stuff? Based on the theoretical maximum potential of a build? Based on the lowest denominators? Based on an average that the devs have no real way of finding out since there is no system in place to give them that data unlike in say, an online based game?
Yes, it is tricky. But a pilot’s skill is very much a relevant factor in a build’s performance.
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ahh young grasshopper,
you see, there might be a local GD joke that Zantai ist das Nerf-meister, but if you actually read all the patch notes, and didn’t just zone in one the 1% of 1% threads from a select handful of people, you’d notice a trend of things getting buffed more than nerfed. And that the things that do get “nerfed” usually wholly deserves so
it might be fun for some out there that there exist 1 absolutely god tier op broken af build, but that doesn’t mean it’s the case for all, or that it gives a great perception of a game. Hence years of careful attempts of overall balancing instead to the best of their ability, so things are more evenly in line, aside from a few niches that’s tricky to equalize.
Everyone playing the same 1 build because it’s objectively “ze strongest” is not very much fun, and if someone do wish for a broken af unbalanced godlike op build, they allow you to mod the game so you can still get your 1sided power fantasy.
There is a also a big difference in toning down a build because an oversight or unforeseen combo made it an unintended powerhouse, vs hammering down a build because it’s objectively ludicrous ex could be retal and reaping arc, and it’s not often you find Zantai just straight up “killing” a build much less just for the heck of it #TrollLulz dev
You also have a subset of people that post patch get a little touchy, “just” because their build was “killed” by now adding 3-10secs longer cruci times(exaggeration), or doing 5shards less in SR etc etc, which isn’t exactly an accurate “standard” of a dead build or possibly even nerfing.
There is a reason way more skills are endgame viable and competitive now than couple of years ago, because things have deservedly so been decently brought in line over time - this is not a bad thing; taking a bit from column A and sprinkling it onto B and C
i’m definitely with Maya on this one 
, the top Cruci runners can run builds with, that i couldn’t even clear wave 130-160 with using buffs and banners and clusters, and in half the time no less 
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Nerf isn’t a dirty word in GD land. Nerf is the flip of buff. You got your Yin. You got your Yang. We call it balance.
You speak of continuous nerfing, how about you travel back to the change logs and start cataloguing the continuous buffing that was also happening.
Jus’ saying. Anyway, GD development is in twilight phase right now - no need to get excitable anymore, we’ve been at it for years now with it and you’re coming in mega late with all that type of energy. Way late. A few people got salty because a nerf hit their build and left? Oh well, they probably needed a break anyway.
Also, don’t underestimate what Crate (more specifically, Zantai) knows - he’s been rocking his job here since 2012 - you might think you’re giving him some special revelation… but you’re not. If you can think it, it’s almost certainly been posted long before you came along. There isn’t much he hasn’t heard of or thought of when it comes to GD balancing by this point.
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Well, you and pets is a bit of a special case but generally that’s not what I meant.
Builds have a minimum piloting requirements depending on how glasses they are, that’s understandable. If one is not comfortable then trading small amount of damage for small amounts of survivability is often possible.
But it’s not the case when there’s no damage to trade for more durability to begin with. Give me a 4:30 reasonably glassed damage spec and I’ll do 6:00 after some practice, but give me a 6:00 spec and I’ll probably won’t even clear 170 with it, or if I clear the timer would be 8+.
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Just curious - any examples of such games?
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I have to add something regarding piloting differences. Oftentimes a builder builds according to his own skills. This has been very apparent when it comes to players like Superfluff, banana or the aforementioned sigatrev who builds on the glassier side. Compare this to people like mad_lee or Nery or Maya herself (himself? themselves? birbself?) who builds bulky. Most of the time the best pilot is often the build maker himself.
Now while this does mean the gap amongst builds is less apparent, one way to assess it is to build multiple builds yourself and compare data only amongst your own builds which is imo a more accurate metric since both piloting and building style is uniform.
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Well, not the nerfs I am talking about, but ok.
And THAT is a buff I don’t even understand. These are Arena-Modes. Why nerf the Monsters there? Not critizising, just asking. Was there whining like with the Mutators or CC? Exactly THAT is what I am concerned about: whining gets you a ‘making the arenamodes easier’ but Killer builds then are nerfed. Not good. Imho.
People vanish here… just to whine and bitch about somewhere else. Not Reddit, no.
I like your aggressive writing style, it’s similar to mine. Are you german?
That’s reassuring.
To be frank I usually only play games which I am sure do NO longer change at all. GD in Twighlight … well that wouldn’t be necc… but that discussion we had already.
Guys, even in the base thread, where the build was shown of, people jested about how that build would be nerfed.
I will not start testing builds subjected to even the slightest possibility of being nerfed (or buffed aka ‘changed’) anytime soon. There is no fun in doing so.
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Welcome to the forum. This is how the forum works.
Here’s a trick I use. I don’t read gear changes on updates. Why? Cause I don’t give a shit (9 times out of 10). Also 9 times out of 10 any buffs, or nerfs, that resulted during said patch impacted me not at all. I can also rest easy knowing that whatever changes were made tho were generally for the better and any issues that there might be from a patch will soon be resolved and you can rest assured that the “elites” will raise a ruckus over anything too drastic and probably get it reverted, or at the very least improved.
Play how you like tho.
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You’re trolling threads for three days now.
Yes piloting matters, that’s why there are some very glasscannon builds haven’t been nerfed because no casual player can do those times with it and when it’s adjusted to have more defense, it’s strength will decrease.
Devs consider these while adjusting balance of the game because they are also hardcore gamers.
As I often emphasize the value of piloting (not just in crucible but it’s obvious when facing superbosses like crate, calla), I also agree @x1x1x1x2’s statement. Builders build around their capabilities and preferences. For example I make balanced builds, often tend to give up some damage to compensate defense therefor I aim for average, not the most aggressive/extreme result.
Also GD mechanics favours some archetypes other than the rest. Like some hit & run builds shine very bright in the hands of talented pilots like your example. It’s the matter of dedication and practice and rng ofc.
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Funnily, I am “German” on my father’s side (and my last name, of course, is a German last name).
Note: No, I have never been to Germany tho. German might be in the blood but I remain All-American.
Trolling my ass. If you think I’m trolling you have NO Forum experience at all… 
See? That’s all I would have needed to know. As long as it is true, of course.
Uuuhhh, murican, velly dangelous…
Well I am a Hybrid between German and Sicilian. Makes you tough as fuck but also people are offended offen, because they cannot compete… cough 
Is this thread also heading for closure? 
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Ähem… no, why?
I always relate my blood lines to alcohol for some reason. Germans are of course known for their drinking habits plus I have a bit of American Indian (known -usually in a bad way- for the love of that sweet firewater) in there from my mother’s side. And I am quite partial to the whiskey… tho I don’t drink much anymore these days.
Plus I’ve lived a very long time in Wisconsin - which is famous for its drunks here in America. Needless to say tho… I can drink most people under the table when I want to.
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