I’d say it’s pretty much the same minus rng fails. People who post unoptimized builds with no Crucible vids but only SR vids - with a few exceptions - still only post vids where aggro abuse didn’t fail. Might have as well been doing the camera thing and saved themselves the failed attempts.
It doesn’t work like that. Turning the camera south doesn’t automatically decrease aggro range of all things. Just those which are north.
But it cannot. Or it would be a mess if it did. Having cleared this or that shard once tells nothing of a build. You can clear 75 with total crap and undercapped aether res if you happen not to run into aether bosses. A guy did 104 on an infiltrator (Menhir, MoD and everything) - does it mean tankiness in infiltrator should be nerfed?
If the culture around it was to run it 100 times and post consistency then yeah. But just because a build jumped 75, cleared it, and there’s a vid - it gives absolutely zero information to Zantai or whoever has any say in balance.
I am not calling for buffs or nerfs. Nor saying that balancing should be done around SR. It shouldn’t be done around Crucible either in my opinion since blessings and banner play a huge part along with who is piloting the build. If you ask me, balancing should be separate for each game mode. That has always been my stance and always will be, even if it might be harder for devs to do that.
What I am saying is that should SR end up playing any role in balance, it should only be after aggro abuse has been fixed.
But you had already been doing all that before the camera thing was discovered. All that changed is that there are no more bummers and rng fails.
So I agree with Maya. Aggro abuse should go altogether. I made a thread long ago where I argued why. But from the 1) no aggro abuse whatsoever, 2) camera aggro abuse and 3) aggro abuse but no camera thing - number 3) is the very worst solution. In action games, it’s equivalent to bugged bosses having an undodgable one-shot move, and your only hope of clearing them is to hope they don’t use that bugged move throughout the fight. Does this simile make any sense?
Well. My planning back then had to incorporate that element of uncertainty. What IF I get zerg rushed by kuba and slathatwat?
So my build had to be TC’d in a way to factor in those what if situations.
And I’m not sure if you’ve seen my SR videos, but I suck at mitigating aggro in SR. When shit hits the fan, my naked crucible habits kick in, and I start using open areas to my advantage which means I aggro everything
I’m only able to pull it off because of naked cruci experience.
Yes and no. I kinda understand where you’re coming from, but it would help if you could clarify it for me more.
Why is option 3 similar to glitchy bosses?
P.S: For the record - I don’t have an opinion on whether or not camera abuse should go. As far as I’m concerned, it’s cheesy af, and I won’t use it, but I wouldn’t dare to impose my arbitrary standards on others.
e.g. I also think buffed/bannered cruci is cheesy (albeit far less cheesy).
Lol I just tried to draw a simile. To clear 75 with your regular 3k/3k/2k build you must use aggro abuse to some extent. When you get rng-bumrushed it’s basically like having a blackout in your grid sector. Nothing you can do about it. Like a glitch-death in an action game. (Well, there’s still a little chance you can kite your way out but it’s minuscule for most builds and boss combos.)
I agree with everything else so I’m just quoting what I don’t agree with.
The major two factors why Crucible does give valid info for balancing and SR doesn’t is:
Times. Despite Z’s insistence on overblown mutators, Crucible times are more or less constant. They cannot be cheesed for most part. You cannot do 5:00 on a crap build. Times show the offensive strength of a build better than anything in GD. (Ofc it’s not 100% accurate because Crucible times favor big AoE dmg - and RR spread - rather than single target dmg as opposed to dummy or celestial times, and there are tricks to max aggro like with Canister, and then there’s piloting, etc.)
On the contrary, SR makes the whole offensive side of building more or less irrelevant. Hell, people are making lightning builds without Widow, now!
In one Crucible run, you got way more different threats than in one SR run. You can bet you’ll get jabbed by every single dmg type and cc effect as well as most kinds of debuffs in Crucible. You cannot so easily compromise on stuff hoping it won’t happen this time. (Again, this is not 100% accurate, 3+1 Crucible makes stun res and health less relevant than SR)
EDIT: This is not to say I personally dislike SR. I post 75 vids in every build (though honestly I find as informative as posting Cronley vids from Elite…). I like it even more now with the camera thing when I don’t have to worry about “blackouts in my grid sector.” So if aggro abuse stays camera thing should also stay.
I agree. However, what is enough cc res for consistent no aggro abuse 75? And how many (no SR set) builds have access to it?
Ofc you can drop freeze res. Big chance Moose won’t show up in your next run. Or trap res because Benn doesn’t come out all that often. But then we’re back to point 2) from my post above. SR can’t really be used to measure builds and buildcrafting - even if aggro abuse goes.
Hmm… when you kite from SR-scaled Reaper/Grava+another heavy hitter with Alex/Anasteria on the horizon even a fraction of a second stunned/trapped/frozen is death.
When it is done with the help of blessings and banner, it means nothing for balance outside of the Crucible. A 5:00 min Build on Crucible can be pretty crap in SR and against superbosses.
So it makes zero sense to nerf the items or skills when the same build will struggle even in Naked Crucible.
Crucible’s Predictability actually makes it easier to build around if anything. I would argue that in SR you will have no idea what you are going to face and hence will need to cover all your bases.
Yeah. It is. But 9 times out of 10, even 80% cc-res will still get you rekt in those situations. hence my previous suggestion to be able to raise your overcaps for CC-res
@ya1 - this is a random tangent. But IMO what actually gets you killed isn’t how long you’re CC’d for, but rather getting CC’d in the middle of your movement skill.
Yeah, I know you cover all your bases. But Zantai sometimes (I surmise) makes balance changes based on what he sees on the forum. Not on what one guy or the other - not you specifically Maya - might think they’re gonna face in SR this time and how it might or might not affect their builds.
And on the forum, you got vids of achievements. That is single runs. Nobody posts a hundred vids to showcase SR consistency. So just because one build achieved something in SR tells Zantai nothing. That build might as well be full of holes and totally unbalanced. Let alone one-on-one fights are extremely easy, and all but the weakest builds can do 75 so this alone excludes SR from any serious balance discussion. (Here, 75 by Silver Sentinel - one of the squishiest melee builds in existence - https://youtu.be/h4GC6G9GZ9). And that in turn is without saying that you can actually die alright in SR. What are we even doing talking about balance and difficulty in a game mode where you can die?
Now, if Zantai sees a 5:00 minute Crucible run there is no doubt that this build is op. If it’s an offensive build, and it can’t do 8:00 by a decent player, then there’s no doubt this build needs buffs.
That then would be an extremely poor way to balance anything, especially considering that Randomness is one of the selling points of SR. But I do not wish to accuse the devs without any actual evidence.
That applies to the performance of a particular build in Crucible as well. Even more so when you are only looking at a handful of runs by some of the best pilots in the community.
What if it was a glass cannon that also has a 50% chance to die per run and the builder only decided to test it once or twice before posting?
What if it was by an insanely good pilot and the average (and decent) player cannot go below the 6 min mark?
What if the build does not show such results outside the Crucible?
What if the build cannot even complete Crucible without buffs&banner?
Not to this extent. Because when we’re talking about Crucible performance, we’re talking about Crucible times not Crucible clears. If the Crucible achievement was just to clear it - and balance was only based on that - we’d have exactly same problem. When you try enough times you can clear Crucible with an inadequate build just like you do it in SR.
Now, times - this is something you can’t cheese, fluke or half-ass. You can’t do 5 on a 7-ish build. You won’t rock the Crucible times if you make cardinal mistakes like dropping Widow on a lightning/aether build. These things matter. More things matter. Hell, in fact, everything matters. In SR, 50% of the buildcrafting game - which is the offense - doesn’t matter at all (at least not until you can’t outdmg Kuba’s heals) so how can you balance anything around that?
You’re listing all the variables that should be taken into account when reviewing crucible performance. And that’s right - those variables should be taken into account when reviewing Crucible performance for the sake of balance. In SR, however, you don’t even have a performance to review.
Then such a pilot - if they are real about forum integrity - should mention that this is a suicidal setup and optionally provide a more solid solution for a wider audience.
Then they should not be posting. At least not with a serious intent to affect GD balance.
Crucible 170 is balanced around those buffs. This is the primary mode. The reason why you care about tributes. Naked crucible is something extra for the more adventurous kiting afficionados. Something like leroyjenkinsing SR.
Besides, if a build is crap it will still be crap with buffs and banners. And you know that!
Proverbially, if a build is consistent in Crucible, it can do everything in main game except celestials. With aggro abuse, this is also true for SR75 and under.
This perhaps is the thing I dislike most about SR.
There is no real penalty for death. If I die, I can just plug the holes in my build with a few augment/gear changes I can keep ready-'n-waiting in my pack and try again.
Now, I’m not advocating that we remove this feature from SR, but IMO it’s probably the single biggest reason why balancing around SR will never be a good idea.
Why would you need a balanced build when you can literally just tweak your spec to each chunk?
Personally, when I die in SR, I quit and restart the run.
To be fair, I think most of the Cr crafters here have gotten quite good at advertising clear ranges.
For me, I always mention my clear consistency in naked crucible.
Any spec of mine which i deem naked viable (i.e. ~60% clear consistency in naked), I can pilot with 100% consistency with buffs/banners.
This too is my biggest gripe about balancing the game solely around Crucible.
Again, based on buffs and banners, which the other modes do not have access to.
What I am asking is, what relevance does clear time alone have for modes outside the crucible other than that the build was highly optimized for Cruci and piloted well?
Because you can aggro abuse bosses in SR. I am willing to bet that if you had to face them all at once, offense will also play a much important role. And that is why I have finally changed my stance from against removing it to for removing it.
You do. or you would have if not for… yes aggro abuse. If you are fighting all the bosses at once, in a mode where you have no idea what you are going to get and manage to make it deep into it, statistically speaking which of these do you think is more probable:
That you have a run where everything lined up perfectly including boss combinations and mutators
or
You face all sorts of different threats that you cannot predict and hence need to cover for all your bases.
Now I know that Death doesn’t matter in SR unless it is HC and it is more about surviving than clearing it fast. But that also gives rise to a new meta as our chinese buildcrafters have showed.
Perhaps, but Zantai wouldn’t know any of that if he is to simply look at the clear time alone. Which is why I do not think that is what he does nor that is what he should be doing when balancing.
True. But changes to items and skills echo outside Crucible and if more and more builds are showing faster and faster clear times, why not nerf the strength of blessings and banners and maybe adjust the base Crucible to make up for it instead of making changes that affect all modes?
No argument there. But my point was that if a build is buffed and nerfed based on Crucible performance, its performance against Celestials and in SR is also getting buffed/nerfed.
Hence why I don’t want game wide balancing done based on a single mode, especially an optional DLC at that.
I have seen you play spanky, you are also being counted among “one of the best pilots in the community” and there is nothing you can do about it
That problem with SR can be fixed by simply randomizing the boss shards each time you die so that when you go back, you find a different set of bosses to face. It will also fix the problem of facing impossible boss combinations.
You can also randomize Mutators upon death for some additional RNG.
Note: this is based on the assumption that there aren’t any engine limitations that make the above idea impossible to implement.
