Regeneration is by far inferior to ADCtH (Leech). On multiple fronts.
Firstly, Leech scales with damage. So you increase survivability by stacking the thing you want, damage. While Regen only scales with flat and % Regen which does nothing for damage output.
Secondly, Leech devotions are much easier to access, with Ghoul, Bat, Fox and Toad being T1, Revenant, Hydra and Scales being T2 and finally Yugol and Mogdrogen being T3. These all offer options for a variety of build paths. Meanwhile, health regen is just Lizard on T1 (Also, quite weak especially compared to 3-4% Leech on T1 devotions), Behemoth, Harvesters Scythe and Scales on T2 and Tree of Life on T3 which are awkward to get especially since you typically need multiple of them in any Regen build.
Thirdly, Regen also typically needs gear support. Such as Gollus rings, Tinker’s Ingenuity and/or sets that also provide regen bonuses like Pyrans or Avenger.
As such, it becomes awkward and difficult to make Regen builds that function compared to simply finding a source of %WD and getting some Leech and being good to go vs anything that isn’t Celestial (Which requires more of an effort on the part of Leech)
So, would it be possible for “Increased Healing Effects” to affect Regeneration, so that Regen builds have an additional option for scaling their sustain?
it’s probably not gonna be any thing major, ie you’ll still have to stack fair bits of regen for it to be a good sustain source, but i wholeheartedly support this idea and think it’s a good suggestion
I love me some health regen builds (although I’m not Chinese), but “increased healing” affecting regen? No. Regen from Physique being affected by % regen from other sources - yes. I mean, you get like ~50 hp/sec or something on average from Physique dump. That’s nothing. But I suppose it would be too good for Physique builds to have scaleable regen on top.
So I’d much rather see more HR being sprinkled on gear, like it is on Barbaros pants. It’s too small to make any impact on its own, but if you happen to stack it AND you’re a physical damage Soldier, lucky you.
I agree that health regen needs more love and since low level of regen does nothing in end-game; improving several and seperate sources of regen and enabling regen from physique scale with others won’t hurt the balance. In order to balance some regen base sets, their flat value can be reduced easily.
Rare affixes with health regen are particularly weak right now, IMO. “of Nature’s Bounty”, “of Reptilian Resilence”, “of the Grove”. I think they’re ok affixes on their own but I’ve never taken them for their health regen, since the values are so low.
I would also recommend buffing Bysmiel’s Silversand. I actually use them a lot but they remain unchanged since FG came out.
I’m not entirely sure why “Increased Healing Effects” doesn’t affect health regen in the first place. It might be some engine-related limitation, wouldn’t be surprised honestly.
So controversial yet so brave. I have a character with mere 1500 regen and it already feels too safe most of the time.
As for the subject - problem is I don’t even know if “healing effects” include leeching right now. But I wouldn’t expect “healing effects” to affect leeching or regen. That’s because they’re “leeching” and “regen” - different mechanics than “health restored” like e.g. Menhir’s will from Soldier.
Increased Healing Effects does include Leech. It’s literally, every source of healing except Regen (Ironically when you consider that Lizard, Behemoth and Harvester’s Scythe devotions include nodes with Increased Healing Effects)
Just going to jump in with a little devil’s advocate here - this point is heavily dependent on the build.
Facetankers that deal their damage directly need leech and lose all of it if they cannot deal damage either due to CC or if it’s glass cannon enough that they need to be constantly dealing damage to stay alive. Kiting builds on the other hand such as DoT stackers or player-pets can afford to avoid damage more reliably while regenning.
Builds with little-to-no-weapon damage to leech on like pet-scaled pet builds and Bleed builds without built-in ADCtH (e.g. no PBlades casters) also don’t get off so easy with just ADCtH and have to work with health regen or chunk heals.
Regen is only problematic in scenarios where you directly try to substitute it for life steal - you can’t get the same burst protection that life steal provides so easily sure, but that does not mean health regen is bad.
Tbh, I’ve seen a chaos DB pyro with conduit mod to vindictive flame facetank SR 90 with insane HP regen. I think the guy took behemoth + Tree of life + dryad; hardcapped vindictive flame and blood of dreeg.
Ofc this was back in like 1.1.4. So maybe it’s outdated.
Regardless, I honestly think the issue faced OP is inadequate investment into said defensive stat.
Compared to Leech, Regen requires much more investment and only really pays off with Tree of Life and/or Avenger but at the cost of well… Having to go Tree of Life, needing skills like Vindictive Flame and Blood of Dreeg, likely also needing Gollus Rings (Possible other equipment like Tinker’s etc) etc…
Meanwhile, for Leech you just need a bit of Leech, some WD% (Or spells that innately have ADCtH such as Sigil) and you’re good to go and quite tanky to boot.
Even moderate investment into Regen ends up with a crummy build with only 1.5k-2k regen that pales in comparison to a Leech build that can more easily get 11-15% leech (Doesn’t need to sacrifice any pieces of gear for lower damage items with regen on, doesn’t need to invest as much into devotions allowing for more damage/utility pickups)
If someone REALLY invests into Regen, they can do some nice things. But you kind of HAVE to invest that much into Regen to make it decent, while for any %WD build you can simply get a bit of Leech and you’ll be fine through all but the absolute hardest content in the game.
yup
that was my point too
we have ADCTH builds that has a casual 10% lifesteal doing XYZ content
meanwhile if you want your regen to matter you need to focus a fair bit in it
hence why i said i don’t think it will be a major change to incl regen in +heal effects, because immortal regen builds will still be immortal, it will just make “casual regen” a bit better as you wont be forced to plop regen stats on the majority of your item slots or forced to take tree of life etc etc to make it work
(probably still will have to do all that if you want regen to be your sole sustain and do heavy content i bet)
I mean…by that logic, leech only works if you go crazy heavy with DPS and (in most cases) %WD
It is also affected by anything which disrupts your attacks, so CC-res becomes so much more important.
It’s directly influenced by how many targets you can leech off of simultaneously, so most leech dependent builds can’t make it to high SR levels (unless Im that out of sync with the meta)
Edit: I’m pretty sure most enemies have lifesteal res? But I can’t remember of the top of my head.
In my experience, leech only works well if you can hit that point where enemies aren’t staying around long enough to do significant damage to you.
Most Adcth builds rely on circuit breakers (e.g. ghoul) to really recover from big hit
2nd edit: barring exceptions like drain essence, most adcth builds also tend to have a higher skill cap to pilot successfully.
I disagree on most of these being necessary, namely Tree (though it does help tremendously) and Gollus rings/Tinker’s belt (though again, if you find space for them, they help).
Other than Blood of Dreeg and Vindictive Flame, other masteries get access to passive health regen as well. Though Demo/Occultists are seen the most because of the Vindictive Flame Conduit and because skill points to both skills come in so easily. Vindictive Flame is also buildable for damage now so that is also another point for building some passive regen onto it.
Provided you have a suitable foundation for it, it’s not hard to build up to ~1.5k health regen that goes up even further with temporary procs.
And I mention again - not every build can afford these or the flat damage and attack/cast speed or CDR to use them effectively. For example, some of my pure health regen builds are Retaliation casters, pet builds and a pure damage caster that could not afford swapping in gear pieces to convert Twin Fangs.
This says nothing about how much weapon damage the build is outputting or how quickly it can put it out however, and how much the build has to dedicate to building up it’s flat damage. Yes, several builds will pick up flat and attack/cast speed for scaling their damage but there are several skills and builds for said skills that do not need it at all.
No-one puts ADCtH on their build to do more damage (Maybe Yugol, Revenant and Mogdrogen are picked up primarily for damage and the ADCtH granted is incidental), it is there entirely for the sustain it gives.
ADCtH and Regen are this games 2 primary sources of sustain (Heal procs and skills exist, but I’ve yet to really see a build rely upon them as a primary sustain source. Typically they’re just secondary sources to bolster what they get from ADCtH/Regen)
ADCtH tends to require less investment in order to get good returns from it, but some builds are forced into Regen because of lack of %WD (Or spells that innately have ADCtH such as Sigil of Consumption, Drain Essence, Siphon Souls). Hence my concern over ADCtH vs Regen, because I want to make builds that utilize non-%WD skills but have a harder time getting adequate sustain compared to my builds that use %WD and slap on some ADCtH.
I could have alternately asked for ADCtH to work on all skills, not just %WD ones. But I know that’d be super broken by the showing of how strong Iskandra’s TSS builds are due to being able to leech off of TSS.
At the end of the day, my main goal here is to see if it is possible for the “Increased Healing Effects” stat be extended to include Health Regeneration. To help mitigate some of the investment needed in order to make Regen builds functional.
Due to the limited availability of IHE, it shouldn’t break low-mid investment Regen builds but might enable them to be more comfortable in content like SR 70-75.
The main concern would be the effect on high investment Regen builds, however, one would need to consider exactly how much it would actually affect them (Like, at what point do you have so much Regen that you basically only die to burst damage that kills you outright before Regen has any effect?) as well as potentially look at counterbalancing measures (Given that all of the builds that have been noted as doing “Crazy things” include Tree of Life it could be possible to nerf that devotion if IHE makes those builds too strong)
Tree, LoE, etc if bindable to pets, would essentially make pet builds even safer than they are atm since the player no longer has to get hit to get the benefit, meaning you can stay far from the action and use both hands to eat ice cream instead of just one.
Note: Stuff like Ishtak’s proc would be weird though, since the Damage Absorb is supposed to go to the player and binding it on a pet would make it go to the pet instead. Also would create issues on how thee “Bonus to all Pets” part will work.
Maybe, instead of not wanting to increase their chonk’ness, Z could just be going for consistency.
