Classes/Masteries Nerfs and Buffs thread

[x1x1x1x2]

It doesn’t work that way with some skills. You can’t have them all be auto attack potency ( or Hagarrad *cough).

JoV made a super popular BWC spammer. BWC was the shit back then. And he did it without videos too.

At no point did BwC kill well on it’s own back then in his build. It was all about how the build worked as a whole. No one ever even question this it was self-understood.

So i really don’t know how to reply to these doubts any more since such mechanics have long been established for some skills, great AoE, less so in single target but aided there by additional spells/procs. If crate increased base BWC flat dmg by 50% you’d hardly feel it in ultimate vs bosses just mobs. It’s not what the skill is, never was

Difference between spam bwc before and spam bwc now is that before bwc+procs = a good build. Now bwc+procs won’t really be good unless you also include a complementary skill. Purifiers use Kalastor, Pyro uses Fire modded DB, Sorc uses devastation. I remember JoV’s original build didn’t have devastation but it was top tier. Difference between BWC and other spam-for-procs skills like CTspam is that it procs torrent once oer second and it doesn’t bypass internal cd. Others either proc per cast (CT) or bypasses torrent internal cd (RE). BWC doesn’t do that so it’s worse in proccing things and it becomes necessary to include a good secondary damage source.

• Untransmuted CT is a bit underwhelming still

http://grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77703

Shaman:

• Actually I have no problems with it as it is… this feels weird :eek:

Me too, and yeah it’s weird. Guess the last patch really helped 2h and shaman in general. They feel so balanced rn.

[Smitherson]

Then the problem is in the availability of 100% conversion from cold to vitality, not with Soul Harvest itself.

BTW, you can convert up to 60% cold to acid with the full Deathguard set, and 30% acid to cold using Silver sentinel shoulders. You can also convert all Vitality damage to cold on Bone Harvest by dual wielding a pair of Mythical Dreadweavers

I knew I was forgetting some way or another of getting that. Still, I’d say that all those skills are about at parity with each other. Soul Harvest has its pet bonuses and easier conversion, Deadly Momentum’s flat damage is getting magnified by Cadence, and LA’s OA gets exchanged for having two hard-to-convert damage types and needing a specific set to get real conversion values.

[adoomgod]

Comments in green.

Soldier

1. Superfluff made some good points here. I agree especially on Warcry. Including Break Morale, skill is Basically Censure for physical with a cooldown, and around double the point requirement. Half the skill effects are either useless on Ultimate (Health reduction, Disrupt) or undesirable for most soldiers (Terrify on Transmuter). This skill is mandatory for most soldiers despite half of it being bad, due to the damage reduction. I suggest buffing it a bit and change the reduction to enemy’s health to simple flat physical damage, like what you see on Warborn mods. This still fits with the skill theme (making enemies weaker and angry at you) while not making you feel bad about the amount of points you spend on it.

Warcry is OK. It’s more an issue of comparable skills being too good. Only thing I particularly agree with is it would be nice if Warcry had a longer duration. Not all skills have to be relatively equal considering that warcry appears on a class with other really good things in its kit. It’s not a good argument to say “This other skill does a similar thing but better, so that means this first skill needs to be buffed.” It’s not bad, but it’s not great. Gotta look at whole picture. ARPG’s are a web. If the first skill in Warcry is really too weak you could scale up the %life dmg since I believe ultimate enemies have resistance to it and heroes and bosses even more so.

Demolitionist

I know BWC isn’t bad, but as Demo’s flagship skill (along with Fire Strike), this seems to be not on par with main skills from other classes. Let me put it this way. Most of the other classes have at least 2 or more Primary skills you can build around that can be in a very good build. Soldier has Cadence, Forcewave, Blade Arc. Occultist has well, Sigil, Doom Bolt (very item dependent tho) and DEE which isn’t bad but like BWC, it’s kinda left out by others, then pets. Will discuss occultist later. Nightblade has PB, the WPS, RoS, SS and ABB aren’t that good but are passable. Arcanist is kinda complex but CT and Devastation all have top tier builds based on them. Shaman has Savagery, pets, lightning/Vit totem. Inq… Don’t even ask me about the most powerful mastery. Then finally Necro has RE, Drain essence, Skellies. Demo has Fire Strike then a VERY LACKLUSTER BWC. The rest (grenado, jacks, canister bomb) are all weaker. I suggest a damage or duration buff for BWC just to make it more competitive. This is a bit biased cause I’m a BWC fan, so for Grenado fans I guess you could use a buff too :p.

No comment on BWC. Don’t use it enough to say anything. Grenado could use a buff. Stun Jacks too.

Occultist

1. I think DEE is also in the same state as BWC. This was once the defining skill for Occultists but now Sigil outperforms it. This probably needs a damage buff/increased dots or a Dreeg set buff.

DEE and/or its main set could probably use a buff, yes.

2. Idk anything about pets but I heard Familiar is good while Hellhound is kinda lackluster. Pet enthusiats can comment more

Hellhounds seem okay but I haven’t done direct comparisons to other pets. I’ll leave this to the experts

Nightblade

1. I’ve seen a thread on this, but can’t find it: Blade Barrier just kills you rather than save you. I won’t be asking for you to be able to move while this is active but I propose increasing the Health Regen here considerably by changing values to %based healing instead of flat so that by the time the 3-second window ends even on a level 1 BB, you’ll have considerable life gain. Something like 10% per second on level 1, increasing by 2-3% per level until softcap and make it scale like shit after that. At it’s current state, you’ll need to pop potions when using level 1 BB at low HP cause you’ll die if you don’t.

I’ve suggested before that it only last 1 second or half a second and heal you more/faster during that time so it becomes like a dodge skill. You have to time it to optimally dodge powerful attacks like Aleksander’s meteor.

2. I think Nightfall needs some love. I don’t know how much damage it needs to be good but please do put some. Also, sleep is kinda bad. Freeze would be better but I understand that sleep is kinda thematic.

Arcanist

1. IIRC, Crate revealed in a dev stream that Arcanist is sure to receive some changes. I myself can’t comment much on what Arcanist really needs but Pretty sure one of PRM or AAR should be buffed at the expense of devastation.

Agreed on AAR and PRM, entirely.

2. Insert AAR fans rant here

Shaman

1. This mastery is probably the most balanced one right now, imo. With the rise of 2h during this patch, Shaman has become a frontrunner instead of being on the back foot due to 2h being shit. Also, pet builds are godlike right now so Shaman is a big winner this patch. Can’t really pinpoint what to change for Shaman right now. It’s not too strong, but not weak either.

Agreed

Necromancer

1. Necro’s main damage skills right now seems fine. BH, RE, DE all seem good. Pets are also good from what I see i videos. There’s a bit of overreliance on Decay but, imo that’s okay. I think we need to nerf Mark of Torment’s scaling past softcap, though. The duration should stay at 5 seconds after 10/10, to discourage Mark (and Mirror) + TD chaining. It’s not too popular right now outside of binders but it might come to bite us again once realms come. An okay nerf for Binders too, imo.

Binders are overtuned. Period. How to nerf appropriately is the question. Your suggestion is a good start. They could probably have less CDR on their synergistic gear as well.

Inquisitor

And here comes the star of the show! The strongest mastery in the game. Also the incoming Paladin class is overhyped.

1. Roons. Hagarrad obviously needs a nerf, The easiest way is to reduce the damage of the main skill, but imo Chillsurge should also be nerfed too. I think removing the extra projectile at 20/12 and reducing the dots will be fine. The strongest nuke in the game while also having the second best frostburn source is ridiculous.

If they nerf Hagarrad, and yes it’s OP, they should reduce the delay on its activation time. I get the feeling they don’t want to do this but it would be a lot less clunky at 1 second delay.

2. WPS, particularly Storm Spread. Currently it (and other similar WPS like Jaxxon) shoots twice the listed amount of projectiles both on DW and non DW builds. I suggest making it do as listed and shoot what’s in there for non DW while making the amount of projectiles shot with DW be 1.5*listed amount, so at 7/10 it’ll shoot 6, and at 16/10 it will shoot 7 or 8, depending on how you wanna round off. A significant nerf compared to the current 8 or 10 at 7/10 and 16/10, respectively.

Only used it in 2 builds so far. And not as the center-piece. So can’t comment.

3. Censure. I believe Censure is currently fine as it is, but there are a good amount of people who want Censure nerfed. I’d say we can do it slightly. Just nerf the post softcap scaling on both the RR and the damage reduction.

Seems reasonable. I concur the main issue is the combination of Censure and Seal. It doesn’t mean both need a nerf, but it’s probably a better idea than nerfing one of the two too much.

4. Inquisitor Seal. The numbers here won’t be accurate but I think Seal’s absorb values should be cut to around 3/4 of what it is right now. Skill basically makes anyone with lifesteal a full tank as it currently is.

Something like that. Inquisitor Seal is super fucking good.

5. Horn of Gandarr has a dedicated set for it but I’ve never seen it being even remotely relevant. I guess it could use some buffs.

Agreed

Need a minor tweak on dmg-loss WPS. Everething else is fine, I`m against buffs to War Cry.

Agreed. Though War Cry could potentially use a duration buff that would hardly effect its actual output.

Demon fire need a buff! Either a dmg one or utility one. Also, i think spammable BWC must go - with awfully slow animation its just a pain to use it.

I rather them just speed up the animation. I don’t know why people want to get rid of a complete potential build type just because of something so trivial. These things can be tuned, no need to delete something players like.

So suggestions:
1)Add %dmg reduction to demon fire.
2)Remove BWC transmuter, incorporate transmuted values intro main skill. Allow Ulzuin chosen passive to work on BWC.

3)Reduce CD on Canister bomb to 6 seconds.
4)Add flat lightning to Inproved casings.
5)Remove range of activation from Ulzuin wrath.
6)Increase projectile speed of Grenade.

Won’t speak further on BWC but your other suggestions are solid. Or at the very least I agree the skills you mentioned need a buff.

Terrififying gaze is in terrifiying state. Did anyone put some points in? Guess why?
I also think that DEE transmuter must go away just like BWC transmuter.
1)Buff poor gaze with dmg, plz. Pretty plz, Crete, just do it.
2)Remove DEE transmuter, incorporate transmuted values to main skill, reduce CD on DEE to 1 second. - Most dmg on DEE come from DoTs anyway. A long CD is just a nuicance, rly.

Again, no need to delete a transmutor and rework a skill just because its state is bad. Improve its state, don’t remove the alternate build type. Terrifying Gaze is shit. Spammable DEE could be better. You could improve its %weapon dmg and lower the bonuses on the transmutor.

3)Add 4 extra levels for Doom bolt, increase scaling from current 22/12 938/1288 to 1100/1499. Remove %health reduction. Add vitality decay to doom bolt at 1400/4 secons on 26/12 .

Would be nice.

4)For the love of Dark Gods, give us some mana regen somewhere in occultist. Its such a pain to be a mana-pot addict junkie >_>
In cornucopia we put it on possession. It was nice. Alternatively you could put energy leech on pox. Or remove energy cost from bonds of bysmiel, and add energy regen + change the description a bit.

Blade trap. :undecided: Blade barrier. Dunno how to fix them.

The Ray. Albertech Aether Ray of Regret. :furious: And cruel 52 Skill point joke such as PRM.

Covered above

Soul harvest is Oupie. Reduce scaling to Lethal assault numbers.
Fair
Foul eruption, rly, Crete? :mad:

Haggard is broken due to shotgun effect. Remove shotgun and its done. =)
If you removed shotgun it would be undertuned.

I think Seal is fine as it is.
Seal + Censure is busted. I think seal and Censure are both just a touch overtuned. A small reasonable nerf to both isn’t going to stop people from picking both constantly, so it should be implemented.

[x1x1x1x2]

@doomgod A big part of Binder’s strength is the amount of fire>elemental to aether conversion items in the game. When you see it, the only item found in EVERY binder build is Cord of Violent Decay, converting 50% Fire to aether. This was actually buffed as the belt converted only 25% during the introduction of 170. I never really understood the buff since Ptiro’s binder was already very popular back the. It should be time to revert that buff. That doesn’t make binder bad. That’s only even a minor loss to Ptiro’s current clairvoyant build. If we could go further, I would suggest removing some ele>aether conversions on some items. Maybe magelord rings can have 25% conversion as a set bonus and remove the conversion on both items.

Didn’t really include this bit in the OP as I was focused on the skills themselves instead of items

[mad_lee]

Definitely don’t nerf conversion on items, it’s an awesome gateway to build’s diversity. It’s just other conversions are not quite as good as ones Spellbinder has.

[Xervous]

Definitely don’t nerf conversion on items, it’s an awesome gateway to build’s diversity. It’s just other conversions are not quite as good as ones Spellbinder has.

cough cough cough

many caster builds would love to have something as well statted as reaper of the accursed. It has a ridiculous lineup of stats for spellbinder. Nerf worthy? Probably not.

[Anathema2741]

One thing I’ve often wanted is a way to convert fire to lightning for Mortar Trap. It would be nice to have that for a transmuter or an item skill mod in the future.

[mad_lee]

cough cough cough

many caster builds would love to have something as well statted as reaper of the accursed. It has a ridiculous lineup of stats for spellbinder. Nerf worthy? Probably not.

And it’s not even meant for a your ordinary binder, it was designed for some kind of a pet build. Gear support for Spellbinders is insanely good, probably the best in-game.

[Xervous]

And it’s not even meant for a your ordinary binder, it was designed for some kind of a pet build. Gear support for Spellbinders is insanely good, probably the best in-game.

Eh, there’s only one skill benny and the minor lump of pet stats that are saying pet build. % damage, conversion to said damage type and +1 to all skills is a pretty big lineup for “anything aether involving necro”. Sprinkle on gobs of OA that the character benefits from and I don’t think it’s really a pet item first.

[mad_lee]

Eh, there’s only one skill benny and the minor lump of pet stats that are saying pet build. % damage, conversion to said damage type and +1 to all skills is a pretty big lineup for “anything aether involving necro”. Sprinkle on gobs of OA that the character benefits from and I don’t think it’s really a pet item first.

I think when Crate designs items most of the times they don’t really know how the item will be used if used at all in end game builds. And it’s hard to blame them, they can’t account for all the build variety their game offers.

[x1x1x1x2]

Definitely don’t nerf conversion on items, it’s an awesome gateway to build’s diversity. It’s just other conversions are not quite as good as ones Spellbinder has.

I’m only talking about fire>aether, which only binder really uses. It won’t hurt other classes. Magelord is just something I thought out on the spot but even that won’t hurt other classes much cause most non-binder aether builds don’t rely on ele>aether conversion as much as binder does. Xervous got a point on reaper of the accursed too. If you’re worried about CT sorc being hit harder, it will never be as good as CT binder anyways for that I’d rather suggest giving it a fire CT set with aether to fire conversion on CT

[mad_lee]

I’m only talking about fire>aether, which only binder really uses. It won’t hurt other classes. Magelord is just something I thought out on the spot but even that won’t hurt other classes much cause most non-binder aether builds don’t rely on ele>aether conversion as much as binder does. Xervous got a point on reaper of the accursed too. If you’re worried about CT sorc being hit harder, it will never be as good as CT binder anyways for that I’d rather suggest giving it a fire CT set with aether to fire conversion on CT

I think fire to aether conversion is one of the few conversions that Crate did right. You can have ~90% with the Cord of Violent Decay and Agrivix amulet, which is a very satisfying build puzzle piece to complete. I would rather Crate buff other build enabling conversions rather nerf one good working one.

Aether to fire conversion plus a dedicated set might be something that ressurects sorc class, but not before they do something with Thermite Mines. Set could something cool besides obvious aether to fire conversion on CT or Devastation (I hope if Devastation gets fully converted it’s going to become fiery red), like convert all Frosburn on Star Pact to Burn and maybe -20% fire resistance to one of the Arcanist skills (that is not Flash Freeze).

[Superfluff]

@Fluff

So IK BWC Pyro can clear Crucible 150-170? What would be its success rate compared to IK BWC Purifier? (but be honest, for an average pilot, not for someone like yourself)

I only did one run with same setup and shit DA, Had GRava, aleks and maiden on my ass. Probably the worst combo for this build and still finished. 100 extra DA and it’s GG as far as i’m concerned. I’m am not arguing that purifier isn’t a bit more comfy. Btw I used Cannister instead of Ignition and fas fissure bound to it.It can proc up to 3 fissures in one cast

I can’t speak for others and judge, i just move away a bit when I get burst, or feel i’m about to, that’s all really

Difference between spam bwc before and spam bwc now is that before bwc+procs = a good build. Now bwc+procs won’t really be good unless you also include a complementary skill. Purifiers use Kalastor, Pyro uses Fire modded DB, Sorc uses devastation. I remember JoV’s original build didn’t have devastation but it was top tier. Difference between BWC and other spam-for-procs skills like CTspam is that it procs torrent once oer second and it doesn’t bypass internal cd. Others either proc per cast (CT) or bypasses torrent internal cd (RE). BWC doesn’t do that so it’s worse in proccing things and it becomes necessary to include a good secondary damage source.

.

I’m using ignition really not kalastor. How much work do you think it’s doing in game? It’s great vs mobs and the burn stack is nice(as sorcs can stack inferno). Also BWC is proccing torrent very nice

We also have way more skill points now which Crate takes into account when balancing. A skill might not be just as strong as it was before, by a small margin, but you can complement it and become even more versatile. If BWC were to be way stronger (and i still feel it’s almost the same) then the build I posted would just be way stronger, because I’d still choose ignition to complement it.

[x1x1x1x2]

I’m using ignition really not kalastor. How much work do you think it’s doing in game? It’s great vs mobs and the burn stack is nice(as sorcs can stack inferno). Also BWC is proccing torrent very nice

We also have way more skill points now which Crate takes into account when balancing. A skill might not be just as strong as it was before, by a small margin, but you can complement it and become even more versatile. If BWC were to be way stronger (and i still feel it’s almost the same) then the build I posted would just be way stronger, because I’d still choose ignition to complement it.

Good point. I didn’t really know if you invested more on Kalastor main skill and not ignition. It’s hard to tell without grimtools

[Avyctes]

Btw I used Cannister instead of Ignition and fas fissure bound to it.It can proc up to 3 fissures in one cast

I don’t think it’s possible to get more than two, there is enough time between the main and secondary explosions, but for three fissures there would need to be enough time (1 to 1.5s depending on your cdr I suppose) between two of the secondaries. I don’t think that last part is possible, I’ve used canister a lot and never seen it.

[Superfluff]

I don’t think it’s possible to get more than two, there is enough time between the main and secondary explosions, but for three fissures there would need to be enough time (1 to 1.5s depending on your cdr I suppose) between two of the secondaries. I don’t think that last part is possible, I’ve used canister a lot and never seen it.

If you get ulzuin proc, like 2x canisters in a row, the delay between main explosions and projectile explosions on the second canister makes it possible

[Duck_King]

If you get ulzuin proc, like 2x canisters in a row, the delay between main explosions and projectile explosions on the second canister makes it possible

Can confirm this. Canister also has a 100% chance to proc devotions due to it’s long CD. I had 3 elemental storms proc regularly on a certain build.

[MatMB]

Most of the points have been made, but I also think deadly aim needs a nerf:
-@12/12 this gives 18%OA boost! and 1/12 for 4% …Really?!
(for 5s duration on a crit with 5s CD…which proc’ing isn’t that big of deal with current meta)
-22/12 overcap is only +6%OA more, which is much more sensible territory.

+1 on that. didn’t try it because i don’t have AoM yet but it looks ridiculous on paper. should be ranged only imo to provide a restriction, and maybe nerfed even them.

also HoS in Necro need a buff and should get the +%OA MoD currently have, as it has been proposed in another thread.

[MatMB]

If we’re really talking about solder skills that need a buff, how about Veterancy? I’ve never seen this skill taken, even in builds with +4 or +5 to Soldier. Every single bonus combines into a perfect storm of uselessness. At 10/10:

• 60% constitution bonus. Nobody past level 5 cares about running out of constitution. Might as well not be there.
• -18% physique requirement for armor. Even without physique stacking being the meta for everyone, soldiers are especially not going to skip it, given that you have military conditioning and want to tank. Using it would actually be actively detrimental.
• 36 health regen per second. A completely trifling amount, might fall on the very low end of mediocre on an Avenger warder of something. Comparatively, Blood of Dreeg gives you the same amount of regen at 6/16 and is also at the 15-point mark, while having all the other bonuses. Still the best bonus on this skill, which really says a lot.

If we’re going by the survivalist description of the skill, add small amounts of reduced poison/bleed duration to represent acclimation to exotic places. Increase the health regen to an amount that just mediocre, but not laughable. It’s not like health regen was ever a good defensive mechanism. Once increased % healing is a thing in Forgotten Gods, this skill would be a perfect place for it.

+1 on that too, one of the most useless skill on the game currently.

[Tigrius]

To me demolitionist should have a deep rework.

That’s my favorite class but he is so clunky.

• it’s a caster class (lot’s of spell without %WD) but who deal physical damage, a damage type with no very few stuff for caster.
• too many offensive skills, lot’s of them are hard or uncomfortable to play with.
• not enought defensive skill and too situational or conditional (except flashbang which is excellent)
• no DA buff, no resistances… no lot’s of things…
• with one of the worst didecated set of the game…

To be more clear, Demolitionist is actually like the Arcanist, without MoE and MSP, with clunky skills and physical damage…
He is made for hybrid build but don’t have tools for that…