DA Stacking and the Crucible

Grim Dawn Classes, Skills and Builds
281

You’re not high, I do recall encountering such builds as well. They were Inquisitor Hybrids and had DA reduction to proc Deadly Aim

Interesting suggestion, but I am not sure if this is possible. The current DA stacking meta allows immortal killing machines. They’d have to get crafty with the code to make it so that the DA route gimps their offense. This solution does however keep the immortal build playstyle open to those who are interested
True OA is as easy to as DA. But the point is some classes or specifically some builds still have trouble stacking them I don’t see any reason to increase enemy DA. We all know the importance of OA. DA allowing fast kill speed and immortality is what screwed it up. A balance b/w OA and DA is what classic GD was about (barring a few exceptions), I personally feel the proposed changes might push us towards that direction

Btw JoV minimum cap for OA is 2.7k and speaking from experience I am sure you’d agree it is too low even for MC. 3k effective OA is what most builds strive for. This is the reason why I disagree on the point about enemy DA buff.

I think this has been a problem even before the likes of jajaja and Most were part of the forums. The problem isn’t the players thinking like this, it’s a problem when build posters start taking this approach as they are the trend setters.
Of course one can’t blame them for doing so and many of the DA stacking build posters can be seen arguing in favor of nerfs.

I can understand the doubts regarding PTH cap value but post-patch player feedback can address that

I should have used the word “builds”, my bad

Your argument mostly becomes null and void when you use this word. It clearly shows you are not able to understand the other side of the argument. None of the people in favor of the nerfs are using this word, so maybe if the DA people don’t want to see things nerfed then they should come up with better arguments rather than use cheap words like “elite”, “casual” and “whine”.

They don’t obey any one. The guys who are screaming for nerfs were “elites” even back in the days and their voices were completely unheard when the devs nerfed Pierce and Shield meta. So no, they don’t listen to us.
They listen to long-winded feedbacks that most of us type up and guess what? 99% Feedback threads by the “elites” are about adding build diversity and buffs.

Even now we have players making non-DA focused builds (w/o Mirror and shield) for 170 crucible. So you couldn’t be further away from the truth even if you tried to.
The people who’ll suffer from their changes are the ones whose builds relied solely on DA and less on player skill.

Also Superfluff’s response to you is the best one, you are not up for change. It’s not wrong to hate on nerfs, I did too but I am much more vocal about it. Cause that’s how I can let the devs know that at least one person is not pleased about things. They won’t know about things unless we tell them, their not psychics after all. They got bridges to build and chickens to kill, balancing only comes in the middle when we bring it up or something is obviously broken

282

If the goal is to prevent DA exploits in Crucible but also to protect builds in the campaign then something of a conflict will inevitably arise between the two. To that end, a rather simple solution would be to have Lokarr declare you unfit for crucible if your DA is above a certain threshold. No balancing required just a big 'ol ban hammer!

283

I love how people keep saying Elite or Casual, without putting actual substance in these words.

Can’t wait until the patch hits, I suspect this is only the beginning of a massive complaining wave.

284

I giggle a lot reading this thread.
Let me tell you something. Immortal builds are there since titan quest, how long ago was it? 10-15 years? Can’t even remember. Back then we even have 100% CDR builds, 3 second to kill any boss, any difficulty build due to %hp reduction. A lot of “breaking the core” mechanic, still titan quest still being loved and played today. I don’t see anyone whine about any of those “breaking” build. Why? IDK for sure, but on top of my mind, some reasons go up

  • People back there are not as a whiner as of today. They play what they think is fun. Not fun for some, fun for some. No one doing any crimes, why the hate on 1 side?
  • Titan quest and Grim Dawn is a pure SINGLE PLAYER game. Zero ladderboard. Zero competitive playing. So…what stop anyone from making a build which won’t use some breaking mechanic? What stop anyone from playing anyway they like? After all, what is the different if you can finish something in 10mins or 20mins? The rest of player base will give you a medal or something? What crucible bring after all? A challenge? Which what reward? some loot? EGO? Who really care? As long as you enjoy it, it fine. As long as I’m enjoy it, it fine.

If you don’t like DA, don’t use it, making a build without it any enjoy yourself. If someone like DA let they play it, what’s the harm in here anyway? Do their toons affect your toons somehow, someway? I can guarantee you that you can still doing anything you like and stop doing anything you don’t w/o ruining the fun of others.

Yet, why do you guys suggest destroying other’s fun? Because DA is a thorn of your ego. You guys see “easy” builds “compete” which your “well thought-out” builds and thus devalue your build. You guys want to stay with elite attitude aka only my way is the right way. other’s way is wrong way. yes?

So, I think the word “whine” and “elite” which I use perfectly describe the situation here.

Honestly, when someone cry about “balance” in a single player game, I lol so much. If there is 1 build that can finish something in 1 min, the other in 3 mins, you will only play that 1 min build and NEVER touch the other? NO.

285

You guys gonna make DA partially useless cause you can’t make the last 20 waves of the crucible as enjoyable as other parts of the game?

So what you guys gonna do when the new crucible wave come out? keep on nerfing something else because player still has to stack something to beat the new content?

No wonder you guys have a lot of “pressing” task to do.

286

Did I just see 1 post got deleted? The one by Sinobu.

287

The devs have made up their mind on this, but feel free to share your ideas on the topic.

Posts which do not contribute to the discussion, but just bash other participants will be deleted.

288

Question here: Did dev team test the upcoming changes with non-meta builds (aka not CDR, Soldier shield builds) for Crucible run W150-170? I agree that there should be no more whining, people are wasting each other’s time!! Just want to know the result of the patch, whether it is indeed effective to rebalance defense system, or just another bandage patch.

Love to see Zantai and others share about it!!! No point criticizing something when you haven’t seen it.

289

I’m not sure how 40% avoidance to Everything and an additional 14.3% damage reduction (multiplicative with other defenses) to attacks that do get through is “partially useless”, but maybe if you use an even larger font your point about how bad we are at this will get through.

290

I’m curious, how many of those who voted against DA stacking, play hardcore exclusively? Do you really think it’s overpowered or ‘broken’?

Take Grava’Thul for example. How many builds out there can kill him safely 100% of the time in HC? Now, if he drops the BiS pants for my build, how many times would I have to kill him to get a Stalwart … of the Dranghoul? Exactly.

I’m frustrated for sure, but not going to push for a nerf or balance changes. Why? Because I know the danger. If DA is nerfed, something else has to change or else many builds will be rendered useless for HC. And if the new changes make the game easier, - many will just get bored and quit. Look what Blizzard did to the Diablo franchise. Be careful what you wish for.

At the moment, Crucible 151-170 in HC is still untouchable for my builds. But I LIKE it this way. Because it gives me something to work for. I don’t want it to be easier. I don’t want to be able to kill Ravager/Mog with every build. There should be ridiculously challenging parts of this game and, for me, the last waves of the crucible is one of them.

291

The devs never test anything to my knowledge. The testing is done by “praetorians” and maybe by our three active moderators (eis, jiaco and medea)

So the likes of Norzan, Ceno, Superfluff, kidpid etc. will be involved with the testing part.

Do remember even if the patch is “successful” on their end, it might be a “failure” on our end. So post-patch feedback will be extremely valuable to them for fixing this issue. As long as the feedback is given by cool heads.

292

You wot, mate?

By the time a build gets to the praetorians, it’s usually 95% out the door.

The main thing praetorians assist us with is filtering out major bugs before they hit the mainstream audience. Feedback on balance is welcome, but generally not the focus of the playtest phase.

293

Just curious about the testing and balancing process. Do you guys actually test the viable and top builds through campaign/crucible 170 or is it very theory based as in you guys make changes and know in theory how the changes will affect the various builds?

294

Well, i made a build, that pushes through 151-170 gladiator without any significant danger, and dont using any cheats to get gear (all self-found):
https://www.grimtools.com/calc/nZoGb0EZ
So, please, dont say it cant be done with current ridiculous DA abuse.
Yes, i know, this build doesnt have spectacular DPS, but who cares about that on HC, for example?
And the reason why i find it IMBALANCED, is the “0% chance to be hit” (or close to that". It’s just ridiculous, almost complete invulnerability without any active actions involved, even.
I do agree, damage and abilities from enemies on 151-170 waves are just insane, and even the tankiest builds (that dont rely on DA stacking, of course) might be insta-killed there is something goes wrong.

My opinion is clear - imbalanced mechanics MUST be fixed, not nerfed. That’s what PTH “cap” is intended for, and for me, it’s a great idea.
So, the game developers wont have this “thorn in ass” called DA, and wont care much about adding new items/mods/skills with DA, or changing DA on existing ones. Even if DA values get buffed, or they add another item/skill with significant DA bonus, nothing bad will happen - because DA stacking alone wont ensure your invulnerability anymore.

BTW, i’m against nerfing DA values on “Stalwart” and other item mods - as long as PTH cap comes into play, there is absolutely no need to nerf DA values on items anymore.

And since imbalanced defensive mechanics called “DA stacking” gets fixed, developers could change other defences, or enemy damage/skills, or Crucible buffs/defenses - so 151-170 waves wont be so ridiculously imbalanced anymore.

Specifically, i highly appreciate changes for “Blessing of Ulo” - those extra resistance will sure make a huge difference againt tons of Resistance Reduction, that enemies possess in Crucible.

295

lol Chthon. Of course they test stuff before they pass it off to us. We are just there to 1) catch major bugs/crashes that slipped by them 2) get feedback on what we think of the changes/additions etc.

Basically we are a safety net to hopefully indicate that they aren’t putting out gamebreaking bugs when it releases and to gauge if we think what they have put together could be deemed “fun” (as far as big additions go, such as a new expansions content).

296

Many of the Praetorians only play the high level stuff and several of them have a whole slew of builds ready to use that they go thru it with. Yes, they test pertinent changes in this area and aren’t shy about giving feedback on it. As far as how the devs test it… /shrugs I would assume they have plenty of builds ready to test with as needed.

297

One problem with a hard PTH cap is that it prevents very high (>3900) DA as a viable means of defence, actually reducing build diversity. In other words, the pendulum swings from too many very high DA builds to none.

A better solution is a “gradual” PTH cap that maintains the same marginal rate of return at the point of transition, while gradually reducing marginal rate of return as DA increases. If you look at my earlier posts in this thread, the mathematical and programmatic solution to this is already well thought-out. This allows a player to pursue a very high DA defensive strategy if he/she so wishes, but with increasingly greater sacrifices required to maintain the same marginal rate of return.

Another problem is that the effect on ROI from the damage reduction multiplier hasn’t been addressed.

Between 70 and 60 PTH, the marginal rate of return is significantly higher than between 90 and 70 PTH. This gives the player a strong incentive to yield as much benefit from this higher RoR as possible. The net result is that many builds will be highly compelled to get exactly 3900 DA, creating a mono-culture of sorts insofar as DA value goes.

298

@powbam and @Z Okay :slight_smile:

299

I never said it can’t be done. I saw your build a while ago, but It’s not something I would enjoy playing for more than an hour. Even my most OP toon (Forcewave Tactician) which I use to tackle superbosses, is boring. Alas, builds that I enjoy the most, will get nerfed to the ground with the upcoming changes, thanks to all who voted against DA stacking.

In stead of nerfing, how about we get some support for new builds. If a build is only good with high DA, - it means, it’s not designed properly. Unless, high DA is part of the design! In this case, if you nerf DA, make sure to fix all those builds that depend on it.

300

It’s clear from zantai’s sample that aside from the DA thing, 99% of changes revolve around making certain things easier. If things are well balanced there won’t be such an incentive to even get all that DA but get more creative, or just more offense, PTH changes or not