That’s the whole point. MK nailed it in his next post below.
Both Crucible and DA should receive substancial nerfs and rebalances, so that DA never makes it 0% hit, but at the same time Crucible should be adjusted to the new formula, so that the challenge doesn’t feel like insane.
I doubt they will complicate their existence by diving into formulae at this point in GD’s life. Although idk what the effort is to remake DA so that it won’t be so much worth after 4.2K. But if it’s messy, they won’t do it
off-topic: I find it weird that OA is pretty shit after 4K but not DA
Lowering enemy OA in crucible 150+ and nerfing stalwarts and other DA sources that don’t affect campaign but can be abused in crucible is imo the most likely thing that will happen, if anything were to happen at all
Hey, that’s a pretty good idea!
I know, right! But that’s exactly what I’m afraid of: unproper balance changes, build variety narrowed down again to the horrible state of being only shielded tanks and kiting casters with mirror.
I pretty much agree that in a perfectly balanced version of GD all this DA stacking shouldn’t exist. But then BS OP nemesis shouldn’t exist also! DA wasn’t a thing until they turned crucible into a fiesta of misanthropy.
So now they have a universal defensive mechanic, avaliable to all classes (DA of course) and they have a worthy challenge (crucible) so you really have to use this mechanic. You are all asking to remove the mechanic and tone down the challenge (and I actually agree here with you) to improve the whole gaming experience. But from the developer’s point of view (in my interpretation of course) this is all a giant amount of work just to move from one working scheme (with DA) to another (without DA). I HIGHLY doubt they will take such steps. I believe it depends on how big is the percentage of players involved, cause I remember Zantai said that not that much players regularly play crucible in the first place.
I really wonder: is DA issue really concerning a lot of people or is it a hot topic only for a small amount of players?
The number of players doing 150+ is very small compared to the rest. And some don’t write here or post builds here or in general.
But it is nevertheless a problem with a dame mode created especially for those players that want a challenge beyond campaign. So it doesn’t matter if it’s 300 players or 3000 I think. Especially since new players sometimes draw inspiration from these crucible only builds
Good topic.
I think the problem is twofold: high DA stacking is probably too good at the extreme levels but Crucible 150+ also throws too much damage/debuffs at you to beat it with most conventional builds. The latter results in people almost exclusively making:
- Tanks
- High DA builds
- Mirror/MoT builds
Or a combination of the above.
People make builds like that because there is almost no other way around it.
Inevitably someone is eventually going to bring up that the nerf brigade is out again and that they want everything nerfed so no one can have fun.
The thing about that is that it’s not about curbing other people’s fun but about increasing viable options.
If the devs think that 150+ is OK in its current state because people are beating it with the above builds, then that’s a loss for the player base as it stifles innovativeness.
As others have said, almost all the viable 150+ builds are carbon copies of each other which is already boring this relatively short period after its introduction, how much more egregious will it be a year later?
As for a solution, I think 151+ monsters’ damage and debuffs should be reined in somewhat, it’s those factors that force people into going those extreme builds in the first place. Take away the reason and people have less incentive to go for such builds too.
DA on the high end is probably too good as well, so if it were to give just slightly less lucrative returns at the extreme levels people’ll have less reason to do that and focus on a more balanced defense instead.
Stalwart should probably be lowered by 1-2% on the high side, it just gives way too much on a perfect roll.
I think a few relatively small adjustments from several angles would be better than a sweeping change that completely screws over the current high DA builds, which also doesn’t help with the current Crucible issue.
In short, DA and Mirror builds should still be viable, but throw the rest of the builds a bone too.
Seems like you just want to be catered by Crate to your individual needs and preferences.
Considering the negligible % of players (Steam stats) who actually level a char to lvl 100 - how many of them do you think focus on beating Gladiator W170?
You, me and 200-300 others from the forums + the chinese community.
Again, instead of trying to act condescending to others based on your “superior game knowledge” let`s use our brains and common sense first - do you want Crate to spend their limited resources to cater to few hundred instead of actually producing content for hundreds of thousands?
The game will never be perfectly balanced and why should it be? You can mod anything you can dream of - why not do it instead of asking focus from dev side in a not sustainable direction for the game?
If you actually read comprehensively i never stated i “like” this meta - i would enjoy build diversity as much as possible. However i am realistic and i am happy with the dozens of viable builds as-is waiting for the new content which will undoubtedly change everything again - why not wait until then to have your “balance”?
It would be nice if all of you used some common sense. You’ve made your views known so if you have some constructive input on this take it over to this thread please.
Of course, it should come with serious balance changes, to even odds.
But keeping such powerful defensive buffs as mirror and MoT indefinetely is very lame. I sincerely believe, that such skills should be used only in dire situations, to save your butt. So, if you use it in wrong yime, it will be on CD for certain period, leaving you vulnerable.
Yes, cause they give a damn about individual needs:D
Look, you clearly haven’t paid attention to how things could be balanced without affecting campaign players or build diversity. All gladiator build posters, or at least most will tell you that DA meta hampers creativity. All you read is nerfs and that builds will die and nasty players like myself want this and that. If playing the victim and accusing others of elitism or whatever does it for you then by all means write about it in the threadmedea pointed to and you can vote as well.
You can rest assured that this DA thing is on the bottom of the list for them. I don’t know how much time it would take for them to fix it, but if it takes too much they wouldn’t ever make this a priority.
However, at some point it needs to be fixed. Whether it’s 300 or 3000 players it makes no difference. It’s a mod created by them and paid for by players who want a challenge. So sooner or later it will need some attention.
As far as i’m concerned if the new “mind shattering” mod is really all that and is balanced, I could forget crucible. But that is a while away
Agreed on that.
DA stacking could be abused in any patch. However, when Crucible was limited to 150 wave, there was no need of stacking too high DA - because you could beat it using other defensive mechanics, too (as my Witchblade build proves, shown in my sig).
But 151-170 waves got so ridiculously high damage and pressure on character, that players were forced to abuse the most OP and imbalanced mechanics, to be able to beat it.
I agree, that 151-170 waves should be a challenge, but let’s be honest - for vast majority of builds, it’s just a oneshot-fest, where they got obliterated instantly, if not abusing DA stacking.
The truth is that the Crucible is unpassable for many good builds. For example, we have a Cadence Pierce blademaster (Valdun, 2xReavers Claw). Good damage, good resists, good survivability, no problems in campaign, no problems in farming Nemeses. Still not so good in beating Ravager, superboss is super after all.
But it dies in Crucible/170 waves pretty fast due to fumble/impaired attacks and enemy RR shredding all resists to zero, powered by tremendous incoming damage.
It was an example but it shows the situation: the only way to survive for this melee fighter is to stack more and more DA, since no other way will ensure our survivability.
Same thing for DW Spellbreakers, all pet builds and more.
Developers, that always choose “an easy path” for balance changes, will never make an interesting game. They will end up turning their game into piece of shit, that only kids or idiots will play. Something like Diablo3 or Path of Exile.
I dont want GD to be a “one-shot” game, that is played 1 time and then gets deleted.
It’s the bane of flat DW builds with no dots. So pierce is the first to bite the dust. Don’t be surprised:)
This formula is the legacy of Titan Quest, where it worked almost in the same way. However, in TQ, OA/DA worked only against melee attacks, while in GD, it works for almost everything…
I think in TQ DA also reduced incoming damage by % not just chance to hit.
but the legacy thing makes sense
I’m totally not surprised =) The Crucible mechanic makes Pierce damage useless, as well as builds with it. It can be overridden only by abusing DA.
Yeah, 4.5K DA is the sweet spot, aided by shadow dance and CoS, at the cost of taking ages to clear crucible, even risking to lose multipliers sometimes:D
Superfluff has a really valid point, the elite builders direct the meta , other players follow. So they has more say about how to balance the game.
The majority of the players just want to have a really powerful build and thus copy stuff from the internet. If da stack is the shit right now, they will just follow though . But come on, this will definitely not encourage build diversities and the problem should be addressed.
Grim dawn becomes possible becuz of players like superfluff----evangelist champion user. It’s becuz grim dawn is unique in its own way that attracts really intelligent players in the forum.
But if it just becomes another daily commodity game like dawn of war3 or sacred 3 or diablo3. The series will end.
And let me tell you, the opinions of the causal gamers are way less important, they have no real understanding of the game and they will not even think about the problems, let alone trying to come up with a suggestion.
That also shits on non-DA stacking builds reliant on them, the problem is the increasing returns after a certain DA value. If the changes were to crap on MC builds then they better reduce enemy OA of campaign. Cause not every build can hit high DA values easily and perfect rolled MIs are hard to get
They are actually impartial and read all feedback from everyone even if they don’t answer or take action. Newer players usually give more feedback on quality of life features as opposed to late game stuff:)