Good post Sneaky parrot but casual feedback is also important for proper balancing. A bunch of the praets don’t even do Ultimate. Most of the player base is comprised of casuals so their word does matter
Of course on this particular issue it is safe to assume the word of an experienced player should be valued, and if a “casual player” is giving tips about 170 then maybe that person should re-check the definition of the word 
You have to remember, they sold over a million copies of GD. So it’s only logical if they prioritize making new cool content over some dull balance changes.
DA seems a big issue to you, but from the grand scheme of things it is not. For example, from the beginning of times (since Diablo 2) it is considered absolutely normal to cap all resistances (even overcap some). Why? It is also pretty boring, but no one complains that resistance mechanics are broken and should go. Why capping DA is suddenly that much different? Too effective? Well, I played builds with 6k DA and I can say that nemesis on wave 170 can actually cut through all of that and kill you. Yes, you have to mess up really hard to die this way cause you’ll have time to kite and heal, but the main point is that even 6k DA does not make you invulnerable.
I think that Diablo 3 and Path of Exile are great games, played both a lot. Yes, they have some issues, like insane numbers in D3 that don’t let devs balance classes and sets properly - that’s a trap they built for themselves. What I loathe most in PoE is its economy: instead of playing a build I actually want to play I am forced to play a hobo simulator to amass some currency for actually good gear because it’s freaking impossible to find it yourself unless you’re living there 24/7.
But anyway, humanity hasn’t invented better arpgs than GD, D3 and PoE.
Capping resistance eases the pain but it doesn’t make me immortal. Resistances are a part of defensive layers while DA literally makes you negate 90% of other defensive layers. Even TD spammers aren’t that laxed, even they need stuff like resistances and DA. But heavy DA builds can safely overlook most of the other defensive layers.
That is broken
You know i’m quite sneaky!! :p:p:p:p:
Lol, we brought it to the point where the discussion was taken to a different thread by moderator.
Seems hot!
No, they can’t. I played 6k DA builds with maxed res and a band of nemesis on wave 170 still did noticeable damage to me, to the point where I had to kite a bit. Without maxed res they would have killed me.
Even with 6k DA (and most builds stop at 4,5 - 5k) Alexander has about 20% chance to hit you. Immortality not found!
No so broken as you think.
It’s safe to say that you can stand idle near him, have some tea and not die at that point.
Add in any of the following: shadow dance, Searing light, CoS, % reduced dmg, absorb and it’s pop corn time
“DA stacking promotes build diversity”
Did…did i just read this right? This is the exact opposite. Pretty much all the builds posted in the last several months that beat Gladiator 170 are just DA stackers. It’s no longer about what skills you use, it’s about stacking enough DA to lower the enemy damage greatly.
I bet a majority of these builds wouldn’t beat 170 Gladiator if they didn’t had over 4k DA. It’s a crutch and bad one at that. I literally can link builds where the posters couldn’t beat 170 Gladiator but then decided to DA stack to around 5k. And guess what happened? They beat Gladiator 170 with some ease.
What’s even worse is the OA and DA formula. OA gets worse the more you have but DA gets way better the more you have. That’s stupid.
There is the MAJOR difference between resistances and DA - resistances have CAPS, that dont allow you to stack 100% resistance. Usually, resistances are capped at 80%, and increasing those caps is very difficult (and you cant significantly increase them for all resists). DA, on other hand, does NOT have any caps. Yes, it’s a bit harder to stack than resist caps, but with certain intent, you can stack enough DA to be en equivalent of 100% resistance (invinciblity). Sorry, but i just cant accept such mechanics being present in the game like GD - it’s just lame and will justify any uber-imbalanced enemy damage (because, enemy damage doesnt matter if you’re invincible, right?).
I also played 6k DA build, and i assure you - even Nemesises cant hit you with that much DA. I facetanked Ravager and other nemesises, without taking a scrath. Chance to be hit was soething around 0-5%. However, some abilities in GD ignore OA/DA PTH mechanics, and always deal non-critical damage. Those abilities are the ONLY danger for 6k DA character. Most of them are fround DoTs or weak DoT debuffs. For example, Gravatul’s ground pools. Your 6k DA toon was probably killed by some of those abilities, because you got too confident in your invinciblity, and didnt moved properly.
Speaking about ARPGs…
D3 is just too “simple” ARPG. Its mechanics is too simple, build and item diversity is minimal, etc. At least, it was like that when i left it few years ago. Maybe, it was improved since that, but i hardly believe…
PoE had the greatest potential among all ARPGs, when it was released. Deep game mechanics and itemization, cool endgame, huge build variety - all that could be easily achieved for it. It was like a rough diamond, ready to be cut. However, its game developers didnt revealed its potential, even worse, their incompetence turned that rough diamond into pile dust (instead of marvelous gem it could be). To the point, where i couldnt play it any longer.
I dont want GD to follow PoE or D3. Really.
Do we talk about how hard it is to make DA as high as 4-5k =.=?
Or everyone have items appear out of nowhere?
It seems to me that we split into 2:
- Elite players who have played this game 10000 hours, have every single items/ combination available and start to complain about how “easy” the game is.
- New, middle ground players who look up after builds that they don’t fully have the gear for yet and think, hey, it’s a lotta fun right there, let’s play into that. Finally, something a nub like me can actually abuse to “win” the game.
With that said, I don’t know much about all of the builds/ mechanic, I just follow all the guide here, mostly the “reasonable powerful” thread, yet most of the builds there don’t have high DA? You can just play the game however you like. There’s no “ladderboard” or anything.
I think high DA builds are a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself. I think the real problem is the over abundance of unavoidable damage, and DA is the most effective way to mitigate this unavoidable damage. You can never get 100% resistance to crowd control, so it’s impossible to kite everything - especially blitz and shadow strike enemies. DA gives you the best bang for your buck because all of the bullcrap and spell effects flying around actually have a chance to miss if your DA is high enough.
In short, there’s just too much damage flying around everywhere in the crucible, and DA is the only effective mitigation tool.
It’s normal, that character reach peak of their power only with best items. Otherwise, game gets boring too quickly.
But you’re wrong if you think that you need uber-rare items to stack 5k+ DA. It can be done with items, that are very possible to obtain self-found.
DA abuse meta came in play after Crucible got 151-170 waves. Before that, enemies didnt dealt such ridiculous damage, so you could beat them with other defences too. It doesnt changes the fact that DA stacking was imbalanced since forever.
For me, it’s essential that the game has challenging endgame content. Game without the one becames boring VERY quickly, and kills any incentive in creating really powerful character. And it bother me, thatone defensive mechanics uses ridiculous formula, that allows invincibility.
And you’re a fool, if you think that it shouldnt be fixed. Sooner or later, Crate will have to release new content for GD. More items with better stats, etc. And DA stacking will be even easier with that, and will be like thorn in the ass for balancing team. They will be forced to nerf DA on various items and abilities over and over again, or use other “cheap tricks” just to band-aid real problem…
This is a good point that shouldn’t be overlooked, I was thinking the same thing as I read through this thread. Lots of people designing and testing builds here just use GDstash and give themselves whatever items they want to try the build. It isn’t exactly easy to get all these double green rolled stalwart of readiness items. I’ve got 2 lvl 100 chars, a lvl 94 char, and then another 5 between 20s and 70s. I’ve only got a few double rolled greens the whole time I’ve been playing and they aren’t even particularly good. I will admit I tend to spend maybe half of my time messing with new chars as opposed to farming with my high level chars, but still they aren’t out there dropping like candy for every player to be able to stack up to 5k DA.
Sure it seems to me like the DA formula needs to be adjusted, and crucible 150+ along with it, but just remember this whole thing is a non factor for the vast majority of players.
Again, it’s come down to something like, you are bored with it, others dont =,=!
You have all the items, you play all the builds, you are bored. As for me, Im not. I don’t see a starwart of readiness once in my 1k hours of playing yet, let alone it appear in the right green =,=! So I don’t have any “OP” builds. I just play normal builds, that can beat crucible as well. (there are plenty of them, w/o DA).
So, I still don’t see why DA stacking is the problem.
Yet, there are easy and hard way to beat the game. Newbie will go for easy builds, veteran will go for hard one. What’s so wrong? You have to understand that the majority of players nowadays don’t spend over 1k hours for any game. So, there have to be an easier way for them to actually finish the game, otherwise the game will be as well as rated “bad”. And, in reality, their opinions are as valid as those who play 10k+ hours.
Until, we come up with a solution, I don’t see just complains about a mechanic that actually “help” casual to beat the game is “broken” are good augment.
For the record, please link me 10 builds that use 5k DA in the builds section here. Yet I can link 10 builds w/o them that still can beat crucible. So…diversity?
That’s where you’re wrong. Ever attempted farming for double rare MIs like thunderstruck of kings or stonehide of kings? Compared to that, stalwart of readiness/protection drops like candy. I see stalwart of readiness drops almost every time i do my farm routes in campaign. And i’ve had plenty MI drops in crucible that were stalwart of protection/readiness. So no, it isn’t exactly that hard to farm compared to those double rare affix MIs you saw so many builds using pre-DA era
I always had a feeling that introducing additional Crucible waves was going to come with its fair share of imbalances, so this discussion doesn’t really come as a surprise.
The debate about the PTH formula being broken is a bit dramatic as it has worked very well and continues to work very well overall. Defensive Ability being readily available is a good thing as it allows players who do not have access to every item in the game more options to create a valid character that can attempt the most challenging content.
That said, DA being readily available does become a problem once players begin to stack it beyond a certain point, an issue that only really crops up after extensive farming and character building analysis, something that I will point out is not really all that relevant to most players.
We think measures can be taken that alleviate this situation at high end play without having too dramatic of an impact for the majority of players. So with v1.0.6.0, we are looking to make the following changes:
1) Reduce the effectiveness of the Stalwart, Readiness and Dranghoul affixes for stacking DA, along with a few other rare affixes.
While this change does impact non-Crucible players, these affixes are vastly prevalent at high end play. A nerf to them will be felt hardest at excessive values of DA stacking, not so much at the values required for the campaign.
2) Apply a minimum cap on the PTH formula of 66%.
Against a Nemesis in the Crucible on Gladiator difficulty in wave 170, without Mutators or buffs/debuffs, this makes a DA value over ~3680 only relevant for counteracting monster debuffs. Going below 66% PTH is overkill for the campaign.
3) Review and selectively adjust spawn counts and debuff intensities of monsters in Waves 151-170.
As has been pointed out here several times, Crucible 100-150 farming is actually fairly accessible with a variety of well-built characters, it is only once you get to the difficulty jump in 151-170 Crucible that DA-stacking becomes more tempting.
However, we do not want monsters in the Crucible to be too different from those in the campaign. Barring a few exceptions such as % Max Health debuffs and dispel mechanics that are more punishing in an enclosed arena, we do not want to go crazy adjusting monsters, so this is not going to be extensive.
I will point out that 151-170 Crucible was always meant to be a challenge and its rewards actually do not scale nearly as well as 100-150 does. This was intentional so as to make this extreme challenge not as alluring for those farming for loot and rather to be a proving ground for those that wish to reach the absolute peak potential. You’re effectively getting ~10% more loot for ~30% more effort.
Something that has become a bit lost with the release of Ashes of Malmouth is the use of Defenses and Celestial Blessings. It is fairly common to simply go Empyrion for Health and Amatok for the damage and ignore the rest. So this brings us to the 4th point:
4) Improve the value of Defenses and Celestial Blessings in the Crucible as a more valid counter to the power of enemies in the 151-170 range.
This change will impact things in two ways. First, it will make this feature of the Crucible a more relevant strategic choice to fill gaps and enable you to defeat the toughest challenge currently in the game. Second, it will give new players a more powerful stepping stone on their way to the toughest challenges by giving them better options to boost themselves when they are struggling.
Of course with further testing and revisions any of this may change and specific values listed here may not be final; but feel free to discuss.
Trust me mate i have been following GD since they kickstarted in what 2013.
I have been lurking on the forums and am aware of all the issues - after all i am a player myself (strictly solo self found though). Have been playing games for the last 30 years (pushing 37 now) so i have seen all done all as far as PC games go
Also i am quite grateful to you and people like you who invent and share amazing builds so people like me who have very limited time to play - can just dive in and enjoy your builds instead of theorycrafting like i used to in the good old D2 days (too old for that shit now…).
As for nerfs - please do note that i do not spawn items like a lot of players and can do by only with what i loot myself. Its easy to judge OP builds when you can spawn x MI with best rolls etc but actually playing self found and getting there is a looooooooooong and taxing experience (took me 6+ months to get MD shoulders then they killed pierce BMs and my soul broke…). Most of the time when a wide game changes happen - there are lots of builds which bite it and in a way make your hard earned loot - obsolete to a degree of course.
Its just that we cant have everything and i also like you hope that the new mode will be end-game /challenge for broader build audience than just uber DA ones.
The as-is fix i assume would involve re-work of the DA formula above 3500 but also to retune probably individually most mobs in Crucible (as wide spread OA reduction will probably lead to other side effects). Also i suppose the XP2 will provide another layer of progression (level cap closely related to the current one anyone) and probably then Crate will apply the DA fix.
Would make most sense anyway.
I. About DA:
DA provide increasing returns and quadrodip =)
1)By reducing enemy CTH you take less hits, DA gain is unrestricted, you can reach perfect invulnerability against trash at 5K DA, against most heroes at 6K DA and at 7K against crusibled nemesis. No one can hurt you if he cannot hit ya:D
2)The less CTH enemy has the less chance he has to land multiple hits in a row. So extreme DA stacking reduce burst dmg.
3)At high levels DA provide global incoming dmg multiplier on top of CTH reduction. It also goes down to zero. And it also provide increasing returns, lol.
4)Since monsters cannot hit you they cannot debuff you. Fun, yeah? No %RR for ya=).
Any nerfs to enemy OA would make your own DA stronger. See http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56478 for raw data.
II. About unhealthy defensive options:
I think mirror is too cheap for what it does - 3 second immortality for 1 point. Mirror should start with 1 second and large couldown but reach current stats at ultimate level. Strong defence for a price. MoT is fine.
I like this point
- Apply a minimum cap on the PTH formula of 66%.
Against a Nemesis in the Crucible on Gladiator difficulty in wave 170, without Mutators or buffs/debuffs, this makes a DA value over ~3680 only relevant for counteracting monster debuffs. Going below 66% PTH is overkill for the campaign.
66% PTH does almost nothing for survivability - it provide unreliable evasion chance and almost no dmg reduction.
Flat gain would work better and reasonable cap is current 4,5K DA - ~40%PTH
66% PTH -> 161% ehp
40% PTH -> 438% ehp
Seems a bit too far out there