Devotion Setup, Veterans, please ... verify? Comment? Correct? Thank you!

[Archmagister]

Hello Veterans (looking at you, tqfan ),

based on this info: [Observation] Damage Reduction applies to all* debuffs I had to immediately check, if there are devotions offering this.

There are two. Yugol and Empyrion.

This thread says they cannot be chosen both in one setting. Help me build Reverend Reynolds, living symbol of the Duality of Man

I fiddled to death and found this option: https://www.grimtools.com/calc/pZrBOLOZ

Missing only the non-essential Point in Yugol.

Veterans, can you please check, if this one point can still be squeezed out somewhere. Just for completion…

Additional questions:

• are there any builds using this (be it Funbuild or MasterEGCbuild?)
• what spontaneous ideas do you guys have in reg. to fitting masteries? Some Phys/elemental build comes to mind… As I am Occ-addicted, would mean Witchblade, Witchhunter, Warlock?

Not sure if this makes sense anyway, as the damage reduction only applies to their respective procs.
Yugols Procs are slow, shortlived player damage pets which mostly make sense if you want to play some cold/acid-based Nightblade-setup wanting to facetank, and sadly the missing point in Yugol helps exactly with those damage types… but this could be mitigated with powerful endgamegear as far as I’ve seen (Groble Effigies anyone? I love 'em!).

Empyrion I never tried, but as Occ-Bloody Pox - Lover I also love ‘knockdown’ and wanted to try long ago anyway with a Sentinel…

What are your thoughts?

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

What are your thoughts?

why on earth would you try and grab both at the same time, when they don’t stack? - and potentially ruin a perfectly good devo map in the process?
also worth to note, that depending on your actual build, you might have other sources of DR available - https://www.grimtools.com/db/search?query=reduced%20target’s%20damage&in_description=1&exact_match=0

easy to get both, but the map sucks https://www.grimtools.com/calc/r2BrnxK2

[Archmagister]

Ahhh, very good, so the last point can be squeezed out, many thanks for that! Feels just a lot better that way.

why on earth would you try and grab both at the same time, when they don’t stack?

But wait… what do you mean, ‘don’t stack’? What does not stack, the devos in a whole or the ‘reduced target’s damage’ - part?

and potentially ruin a perfectly good devo map in the process?

What am I ruining? Other devo setup options? Not sure what you mean by this…?

also worth to note, that depending on your actual build, you might have other sources of DR available

I am aware of this… I wanted to ‘stack’ even more of this ‘reduced target’s damage’ to see what the results are… Are you telling me, that this effect doesn’t stack at all? Then it wouldn’t make sense of course to have these both in on setup. Only… for FUN

easy to get both, but the map sucks

Yeah, that’s clear, there are not many ‘synergies’ in such a setup (if that’s even what you mean), but I always try to go to extremes in a ‘CERTAIN’ area (in this case reduced target’s damage), not (yet) in all possible areas, to see how this setup would … work out. In real gameplaymode. I am still learning the game.

easy to get both

Btw, for me it was NOT easy, but I totally forgot to check the Devos which give only points in ONE ‘colour’. Only looked at those giving points in at least two. Learned something again.

Aaand btw, too: https://arctice.github.io/gd-starnav/ this couldn’t do it at all. Thus cannot be relied on, sadly…

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

what do you mean, ‘don’t stack’?

DR doesn’t stack… highest applies
debuffs only stack if there is a -(minus) symbol in front of it, no such thing as -DR

Other devo setup options? Not sure what you mean by this…?

you need RR in a devo map, it’s a such a vital mechanic of the game with monsters stacked so high, that unless you only plan on doing campaign, you need RR from devotions
not to mention usually benefiting constellations that compliment your builds missing stats, like DA/OA, phys res, sustain, debuffs, dmg procs, and other synergizing factors, not to mention resists and CC res ofc

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

Aaand btw, too: https://arctice.github.io/gd-starnav/ this couldn’t do it at all. Thus cannot be relied on, sadly…

can’t do it because it doesn’t consider every little trick, it’s good for “basic” or overall devo roundup, but for complete minute details you need to go manual
it also can’t do partial devos iirc, which sometimes you don’t actually fill out ex an entire T3 constellation because 1-2pts might be better spent elsewhere, and starnav can’t account for partials
but it’s 90% of the time solid enough for a “rough” of base draft at least

[Archmagister]

DR doesn’t stack… highest applies
debuffs only stack if there is a -(minus) symbol in front of it, no such thing as -DR

Oh… is this verified? Can you point me to the thread then?

Wouldn’t make sense on the first look then… BUT:

Empyrion hits around the player, Yugol sends his black blood separately to enemies. Not necessarily a bad thing, but needs testing.

And what about the ‘different sources’ - point? Does this not apply here, is this verified also?

you need RR in a devo map, it’s a such a vital mechanic of the game with monsters stacked so high, that unless you only plan on doing campaign, you need RR from devotions

Yeah, I remember that sermon very good. I also understand the point in this. But not every Setup is planned to do EGC, this one definitely not. Some things are just done for fun. Testing. I am currently testing RRs with different setups/toons. Some setups perform far beyond expectation, some vice versa, so… I’m still learning, by playing and testing and having fun. And asking for help here, when I’m stuck. As many do.

can’t do it because it doesn’t consider every little trick, it’s good for “basic” or overall devo roundup, but for complete minute details you need to go manual

Yeah, obviously… I still thought, that if this:

it also can’t do partial devos

does NOT apply in a setup, it would find a way. Doesn’t…

It’s of course solid for the rough base draft and I am going to use it further. Together with my… templates.

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

And what about the ‘different sources’ - point? Does this not apply here, is this verified also?

sadly the guide explaining this got nuked

different sources doesn’t matter alone for stacking, type does, different sources matters to get the highest of same type to apply if it’s non-stackable type, or ex if in multiplayer for stackables
debuffs are kinda the same as RR, there are 3 types
-**% (minus symbol, that’s important)
%reduced target’s something something
N’th reduced (we call it “flat”)

we have ex in your occultist case Vulnerability (2nd node in Curse of Frailty), Wasting (2nd node in Bloody Pox), each respectively reduces OA and DA, but notice the minus symbol
then in ex devotions we have Korvaak with Eye of Korvaak proc, reducing targets OA/DA by 130(flat)
that means you can smack Wasting+Vulnerability ontop of korvaak and reduce targets OA/DA by the combined amount
but, lets say you also have a soldier, with Blindside (flat) and Markovian’s Advantage (flat), or your’re a “poison occultist” so you take Scorpion Devotion with Scorpion Sting (reduces targets DA 150(flat))
that’s combined 4 sources, but of the same type, N’th reduced(flat), hence they don’t stack, highest applies
the highest will still stack with Vulnerability/Wasting because those are stackable types of debuffs - but if you are in multiplayer you can’t put 2x Vulnerability from 2 occultist, because then “same source” matters
%reduced and N’th reduced is not stackable(regardless of source), only highest applies. But you can throw them on to -%(minus symbol) and have as many stackable(from different source), with 1 of each non-stackable(regardless of source)

then look at DR, it says **% Reduced Target’s damage, %reduced being key, no minus symbol, hence it’s not a stackable, you can only have 1, and it will be the highest value that applies,
doesn’t matter if it’s DR, speed, resists or Fumble/Impair, %reduced doesn’t stack on itself

Empyrion hits around the player, Yugol sends his black blood separately to enemies. Not necessarily a bad thing, but needs testing

i can tell you right now it’s not gonna be awesome, unless you manually focus on ordering the Yugol blobs around (which would be wasting your player input),
because the blob AI is gonna wonk around, together, whereever, where you don’t need them, to where there is no point in stacking both Yugol and LoE in hoping that blobs take care of the ones LoE didn’t fully reach

[Archmagister]

This is good, I had to read it several times.

I think you are referring to the so called ‘Grim Dawn debuff cheat sheet’. I downloaded it not long ago, but didn’t know that the DR is handled the same way… could’ve known though, as Soldiers Warcry is shown as an example of what you just explained.

unless you manually focus on ordering the Yugol blobs around

I didn’t even know this was possible for player damage ‘pets’… No, I don’t plan on doing that, too much … hassle

But in the end I will still test some build with this Devo setup, probably a sentinel, I have one available for it. The DR is only one part of the fun to me, and a new one. I wanted to test this as a Roleplay experience only for a long time anyway, so…

Nevertheless I really thought, DR would stack. Even with the 6 Blobs, as you call them… imagine that, how cool that would be… MINUSdamage…

In the end, thanks again, this was in a whole very helpful and you saved my day by making ‘full Yugol’ possible!!

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

imagine that, how cool that would be…

and there is your answer to why most debuffs don’t stack
Z is all about “balance” and other weird things

[Archmagister]

yeah, he sure loves his Nerf-Hammer. But I expect all this experience to help balance the next expansion or game even better. Might need a new approach to a few things, though…

Btw, I found another argument, that may apply here: Duration. While one lasts, the other does not add to it, but when the first times out, the second then works, maybe even a third, and then the first again. Anyway, needs testing

[Archmagister]

I found something interesting reg. the starnav https://arctice.github.io/gd-starnav/ reg. this case, that might even be worthy a sticky Thread:

Lookee here:

If you use the starnav and just lazily klick the first Tier3 Empyrion that you want to have, the programm immediately rules out Yugol.

But if you start with Tier1s, the program is suddenly able to find a path to BOTH Tier3s in one:

So, this means, if you have a starting approach for what you want to get, put it in the programm, and to a certain extend, it can then find a better way as if you just let it do that all by itself.

I need to find the boundaries of this now…

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

main boundary it has is not being able to consider partials, that’s usually the biggie

[Nery]

Veteran players knows devotion map by heart, no need for any tools

I would say making a map you usually work towards the T3 devotion you intend to go, taking on the way your damage type - RR, flat RR (if you don’t have it from skills/items), Ultos or Viper for % RR if you’re elemental build. You also take devotion with procs, which you like. Bat is good for healing, some builds will also take some other T1 like Imp, Tsunami, etc. Also defensive devotion and stat sticks. Ghoul for circuit breaker, Sailor’s Guide for physical res and slow, Hawk for OA and crit damage and similar. For 2H builds you should take Kraken, for ranged occasionaly Hydra is very good. Rest of devotions are whatever is in your way and grants you affinity points. Most damage types will have distinctive paths, some will have more options where to go and what to take.

Damage reduction should be present on every build and it’s important defensive mechanic. To me best source of it comes from skills - Aura of Censure and Ravenous Earth. Lot’s of builds will have access through skills or gear. But if you don’t, taking Yugol for cold or acid builds will be helpful but I certainly will not sacrifice my devotion map for just getting damage reduction. It’s lot better to find another way.

[Archmagister]

well, yes, I am aware of that, and now that I know, that the starnav behaves differently when approached differently in reg. to what is clicked first and last… I will have to rework my ‘what’s possible’ - Tier3Combination - Overviews.

But to be frank, having it all in excel helped me a lot more… surprisingly.

I stumbled about health reduction a few days ago, damage reduction just yesterday…

What can I say: when I remember my beginnings in this game, when I more or less ignored the whole devotion-system, then starting to stack damage, then starting to stack defensive and now starting to take a look at the more ominous Statistics… I came far!