Devotion Sustain Options Discussion

So… nerf them, because 4 people abuse it for high SR? Or all players should go for Crucible only?

I absolutely love this Scales-mania nowadays.
Three SR 100 Sorcs don’t use Scales
My SR 100 Binder don’t use Scales, because Aeon is still the best defence
My Wildblood Ritualist died five times in a row in naked test with Ghoul+Scales+Bat and died a lot in SR 75. But it works very well with Wendigo+Bat

People completely misunderstand the importance of Scales and its difference between classic Ghoul.


You should only ever use scales on vit if you have energy problems or you don’t have enough buttons to afford wendigo. Wendigo proc itself is better than scales but scales is more splashable on many devo routes and is usable by more builds (i.e. melee)

What makes scales op isn’t that it’s the best defense out there. It’s just too splashable and convenient. Phys and pierce has it in their natural path. Fire route with meteors isn’t very restrictive and leaves you with a lot of room to fit scales in. Cold and acid have a ton of conversion that makes them wanna get it. And for all of those you don’t need a button to activate it. You don’t even have to start a debate between ghoul and scales cause everyone can fit both of them except dw pierce builds that wanna get both unknown soldier and azrakaa.

Wasn’t that the entire point of the Tip the Scales change? People were complaining that there was no flat RR devotion on the yellow part of the map, forcing physical and pierce builds to go for Raise the Dead or Acid Spray. But now that’s a bad thing?

Unless Tip the Scales is causing any build that uses it to overperform, then it’s not OP in the slightest. Being used by a bunch of builds, something people complain when the opposite happens (no one using something), it’s not the same thing as being OP.

And what are you gonna do, nerf it? And by proxy nerf a bunch of builds that use it, builds that most likely aren’t overperforming? Never got this mentality that a bunch of builds use something, therefore it’s OP.


Agree, thats 8 points needed plus 4 to reach the proc skill of Scales, also it can only affect 1 per proc. Fire route has Crown, Revenant and Demo itself has -RR, more convenient choice for them. Cold and acid have to think twice, when Ultos, Leviathan and Yugol have no relate affinities to it.


I don’t get it. Its not like Scales make you immortal or give godlike dmg(like Guardian Gaze do) So what the point of that “oupie oupie” talk? 6 yellows and 6 nodes is far from cheap investment.

Where the fuck did I ever state anything about scales RR? Did I read my post wrong or did you read my post wrong?

And nerf scales? Sure. Let the people on the left side of the map use their ghouls bats and wendigos. Let the phys and pierce builds on the right use their scales. How? A simple damage type change from vit to phys (there’s less values phys to anything conversion available compared to vit to anything except pierce) means phys and pierce still gets to use it to full effect and the others don’t. The only thing that really gets hit is acid but really the discovery of acid scales is just used as an excuse for acid to continue to have shit itemization outside of venomblade. The original intent of the scales buff is to make phys and pierce use it. Now phys, pierce, acid, fire, cold, even aether, and some lightning builds use it. Isn’t that the same problem that revenant created before?

Just because there is a “I use Scale” mob on the forum don’t mean that scales is a problemm. I use guardian gaze on a lot of non-supproted dmg builds, do we need to nerf it too?

I agree with that. Scales like every other defense matter only in a combination with other forms of defense. Scales is not OP and it’s not anywhere powerful enough to carry a build alone. It’s nothing like DA meta, when you can abuse one defensive stat and neglect everything else.

And in new fast&furious Crucible and deep realms, you need extra advantage from every possible defensive mechanic. Scales provides one. But you know not every build can afford to go deep in yellow route without give up too much.

So I don’t think that nerfs to all sustain sources in the devotion map is a good solution.


That statement literally had nothing to do with you calling it OP. I was just stating the fact of why Scales got flat RR in the first place and why it’s one of the reasons it makes it good. Scales isn’t used solely for energy leech or ADCTH, neither by the way makes it OP in the slightest.

So any nerf to ADCTH will affect the RR by proxy since you are dealing less damage, therefore healing less.

By the way, it had ADCTH and energy leech far before it had RR and no one used it then. So the RR definitely helped it to get actually used.

Not really. Zantai said he added flat RR to Tip the Scales to increase the amount of flat RR in the devotion map. He never said it was to help physical and pierce builds specifically.

And we all know what happened to that. No one uses it basically, or haven’t seen a build use it in a while.

So, buff Revenant instead?


What an interesting facts we have there:

  1. The fastest fire build don’t use scales
  2. The highest SR fire build don’t use scale
  3. Phys builds use scales, because it’s naturally acceptable with phys devo path
  4. Pierce builds finally have some variety in the devotions.
  5. Cold builds go for Ulthos+Yugol+Amatok for massive %damage boost. Moreover, @banana_peel has several godlike cold builds unposted. Know what? He doesn’t use Scales
  6. Wtf Spellbinder needs Scales while there is Wendigo. Going for Scales as Spellbinder is a nice variety now, nothing more.
  7. Scales aren’t suited for lightning devo path

As the conclusion, I don’t see any build that would overperform due to Scales. As an opposite, the majority of best Crucible/SR builds don’t have Scales


You will nerf a lot of builds with that. I use it on some aether builds for example with vit to aether conversion.

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Guardian’s gaze proc is really good. But the disadvantage of needing an extra button is still there. Not everyone can afford that.

That’s the same with ghoul, bat. ADCTH being the best defensive mechanic has been a hot topic ever since DA meta ended (and scales was nothing back then). And what happened? More lifesteal through scales.

Forgot that, but going yellow is still phys and pierce (and retal) business.

It’s still used in vit, aether and the rare chaos builds.

IMHO, its better to have something in deviotions that can be used by a lot of characters rather that something that is never used by anyone.
Where did someone picked Gallows? Eh? Gallows, yes, gallows somene? Vitatly devotion? Or where did a cold build spend nodes in Tsunami.


The proc is pretty strong, actually. The problem is the 5 points and bad nodes

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Yes, and that exactly like scale. The proc is strong, but 6 yellows and 6 nodes. I think ppl forget the opportunity cost here.


As en example:
Acid builds sacrifice at least 2 damage procs from acid path to take Scales

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Again, I didn’t say scales is the best defense. It’s just the most convenient, even more than ghoul which will sometimes proc alongside every other circuit breaker you have (I recognize ghoul still gives more).

The prevailing thought here is that it’s only OP if it makes builds OP. Yes, scales might not make builds OP. But it becomes part of the lifesteal meta (along with ghoul and bat) that we’ve had for a very long time since the end of the DA meta (and that was AoM). Now, there are virtually no builds that ignore getting one of those three things - except retal who gets scales for RR. This also reinforces the vitality converted to x meta @ya1 mentioned.

And yes, this also applies to ghoul (to a greater extent even) and to a lesser extent, bat. Scales is just the current point of discussion so that’s where everything is directed.

edit: I see stuff about the cost of getting scales. Yes, that’s a downside, and the only downside.

That’s true. On my Deathguard Reaper, I had to drop GG and Manticore and go to scales not because I wanted to make it op. I just wanted to make it survive at least.


Maybe you have another meta to introduce? A vast majority of builds live by lifesteal.

Btw, retal builds don’t take scales.

And the sources of conversion are not forced to taken into builds, they’re often BiS for builds and easy obtainable.


Again, the opportunity cost. Bat is cheap and provide 1 good node, there is no reason not to use it on green-red devotion path. Wendigo is expensive. Scales even more expensive, and both of them are worhless unless you can converet stuff.
Regen work, but its fuckton of devotion wasted on regen that half the dmg output of spec.