I have seen no indication whatsoever that the devs intended to make the leveling experience worse. I have seen clear indication that they meant to resolve the issue where the listed values and the actual values were different.
It seems likely that they made a deliberate decision to add 4 required points to fighting form.
I have never argued for maintaining the bug. I have instead argued for high enough initial values to be useable at level 7, to avoid painful leveling.
At level 7 and 8 you are, and it’s a problem where it wasn’t before because of the significantly increased monster density.
But if the passthrough values were appropriately buffed, you wouldn’t be killing 1 trash mob in 3 shots, you’d be killing a whole group of them in 3 shots.
because it required 12 to intendedly reach it before? - i already said it seems very much like they decided to split the difference between the bug and old tooltip/old intended design
and it’s not painful, is what i’ve been saying over and over, because you still get 50% passthrough, which is fine, and from then on you’re only 1 level behind in passthrough values and until getting full passthough
it is not, again, while we talked yday i ran multiple cadence character through, it’s not an issue for cadence/the pass through values, and the veteran monster density is not really impacting in a significant way because you’re that low level
losing some limp dmg aoe clear is not as big a deal has just having a crappy low dmg 1pt skill that triggers 1/3attacks
which you can still do, at lower chance/“1 character lvel behind %values”
what you want is exactly the same as keeping the bug, because you want to keep the high bug inflicted values, which, since it got changed to require 8pts, seems like that’s very much not what was the aim
It required 4 points to max it out before. That has been consistent behavior over the past 7 years.
It requires 8 now.
It has never required 12. What used to require 12 was to get the display to say it had maxed out. But even for people who mistakenly thought 12 was required, there never was an issue with insufficient AOE. Putting too many points into fighting form cannot cause insufficient AOE, and it does not hurt leveling.
That value is not fine.
I think you’re confusing the per hit passthrough chance with a chance to get AOE. It doesn’t work like that.
50% passthrough is not a 50% chance for 100% passthrough. If it were, that would still not be enough, as it only goes off every 3 hits, so that situation would give you a 16.7% equivalent chance.
A 50% passthrough chance gives an 8.3% chance per shot to hit 3 targets, and a 1% chance to hit 6.
That is not adequate or even close to adequate.
I think you’ve confused the low AOE for low damage for cadence itself. With adequate AOE, cadence was always fine to level at 1 point.
what part are you not grasping? this is getting pretty annoying my man
the tooltip required 12pts to reach 100%; ergo this was originally the intended amount to reach 100% passthrough,
we know this because the devs fixed it the moment it was made public
you’ve been relying on an unintended bug we know this because it was fixed when it was made public; otherwise the devs would not have changed the values nor altered the amount of points required in one way or the other; because it got lowered from 12->8 in the process; this very clearly makes it a conscious choice that either way 4 was not the intended amount
the devs would not have set a tooltip description/requirement of 100% at 12 if they didn’t originally intend it, nor would they have changed it to 8 after the bug fix; if they had ever intended it to be 4, that part is clear as day to anyone
“consistent behaviour” doesn’t matter if it’s unintended, that is why we’ve seen multiple “fixes” over the years when they were made public
it made those that didn’t know about it wastes skill points, spending 8more skill points than necessary during low level is exactly impactful to levelling, and is more impactful than not having 100% passthrough a level later
it is fine, i’ve run multiple cadence trials since this, you even saw Coyote chime in, the issue is not the passthrough value nor the time it takes to reach 100%, the issue is mainly ST dmg for Veteran
i’m very well aware of the math/probability behind partial passthrough; and i’m still telling you it’s fine, because i’ve played it since the change
it’s the same adequate now, and it’s the same sucky now, there is almost no difference, i know this because i’ve levelled cadence multiple times since 9.8 now, the passthrough amount of fine, it lacks STdmg when you go the 1pt route that’s it, the passthrough amount is fine and does not hinder you very much nor is that impactful in detriment as you’re trying to make it out to be
there is basically “exactly” 3 instances where the passthrough change impacted something a little bit from 7-9
if you struck out and didn’t get any scrap and requires you to enter Putrid Den to get it and you get a bad spawn/pull in there; but even with current passthrough amount that’s totally fine and manageable and not uncomfortable
the ranged spiders spawning through after the door to the prison dungeons, but it’s not like you’re dealing with an impossible challenge compared to other(non passthrouhg/non gunner) builds that also can get overwhelmed here
if you get a totem spawn in either Prison Dungeon, Putrid Den or south Wightmire, but it is manageable,
^albeit the most impactful scenario 3 and also the most RNG heavy.
these are the only instances where going from 90’ish? to 50% passthrough at lvl 7 and 100% down to 80% at lvl 8 has any remote significant impact/change, and even then the impact is not very big and most affects a potential totem encounter because the other scenarios were still just regular trash enemies/not heros and multiple hard spawns
here, this is how much of a non-issue this is
for 15minutes you have a bit/40-20% less passthrough than before
*timestamped it when the passthrough interaction takes effect at lvl 7 and ends/“equalizes” at lvl 9
**Putrid Den encounter at 24.44
***incase it wasn’t clear: this is not suffering/bad/detrimental or any" significant" downgrade “causing issues”, remotely
apologies for the late post for some reason it took YT several hours to both upload and process a mere 4gb file @_@
I watched your video, and it does not demonstrate what you claim.
Looking at the first fight after level 7, you faced off against 2 eyeballs, 5 zombies, and 7 bugs.
Total monsters killed: 14
Total shots fired: 32
Total cadence shots fired: 10
Total instances of 2 monsters hit: 3
Total instances of more than 2 monsters hit: 0
Total number of monsters killed by AOE: 3
Extra hits per successful AOE shot: 1
Looking at your fight against pusquill and his minions, I counted 29 minions.
Against the minions:
Shots fired: 97
Cadence shots: ~32
Total AOE instances: 5
Total monsters killed by AOE: 9
Average shots fired per kill: 3.34
Extra hits per successful AOE shot: 1.8
Against pusquill:
Shots fired: 98
Total shots fired against pusquill and his minions: 195
You took as many shots against pusquill as you did his minions. You complained about how many shots pusquill took, but you’re okay with his minions taking just as many.
I took a fire strike guy at level 8 and a blade burst guy at level 7 through pusquill and his minions.
Fire strike:
Minions: 22 shots
Pusquill: ~82 shots
Total shots: ~104
How much easier to kill pusquill than his minions? 3.73x
Blade burst:
Minions: 26 shots
Pusquill: ~120 shots
Total shots: ~146
How much easier to kill pusquill than his minions? 4.61x
Before I started counting the numbers, I took a level 9 or so guy with points in Zolhan’s Technique only through pusquill and minions, and it felt similar.
Going through pusquill’s minions should be about 4x easier than pusquill himself. For the nerfed cadence, it’s about the same. AOE is now approximately four times harder than it used to be.
That feels bad. It doesn’t matter how many times you insist on it being wonderful, it’s not.
I don’t see the issue here?? Like, you don’t have to use ranged Cadence as an early leveling skill…
Sure, you can. But you don’t have to. Is it painful? Depends on your perspective. There are more efficient ways to level, that’s for sure! If you really wanna use it, go for it. It’s not gonna be the best. Like for Demo, levelling early with FS is a PITA. You can do it, yeah. But it’s undeniably more efficient to use BWC for the early stages.
First, it has been made public repeatedly over years. I saw it on some forum on the internet 7 years ago. It was a public post, which could be seen by others. For the last 2-3 years or more, I’ve been on the grim dawn subreddit, where I’ve announced it in public on the internet multiple times. When I got on this forum last year, I announced it again, probably multiple times before someone got interested.
Second, it was not fixed when people on this forum started discussing it. Instead, we got feedback from the devs saying this was a display bug, and it would not be fixed.
I don’t think either when it was fixed or when it was known is in any way relevant to anything. There is no real point in discussing things that aren’t relevant.
Nothing got lowered from 12 → 8. Unless you’re talking about display values only, which don’t affect gameplay.
This is factually incorrect.
That the tooltip got people to spend 8 skill points does not need to be mentioned again, as everyone reading this thread has heard me say it and you say it repeatedly. We’re aware.
But the claim that it impacted leveling is false. When considering leveling advice for a guide I’m working on, I considered mentioning to people that it would be more effective to dump extra points into fighting form for awhile.
Putting extra points in hurt builds in the endgame. At the point in the game we’re talking about, putting too many points in helps.
Delay in getting 100% passthrough is not the issue. The issue is that passthrough amounts along the way are too small to provide effective AOE at a point in the game where effective AOE is needed.
If you dump as many points as possible in fighting form, as soon as possible, you get 90% at level 7 and 100% at level 8.
Using new values and dumping as many as possible gives you 50% at level 7, 80% at level 8, and 100% at level 9.
With old values:
Level 7: 27% chance to hit 3 monsters, 19.6% chance to hit 6 monsters
Level 8: 33.3% chance for any number of monsters
With new values:
Level 7: 8.3% chance to hit 3, 1% chance to hit 6
Level 8: 21.3% chance to hit 3, 10.9% chance to hit 6
Hitting only 3 monsters is weak AOE, 6 is moderate AOE.
For comparison, a 20% chance for a wps with guaranteed passthrough which can hit any number of monsters with no limit feels inadequate, but not quite unusable, and a 25% chance for a wps with guaranteed passthrough with no monster limit feels adequate.
And clearly it has a strong impact. When you went through pusquill and minions on your video, it took you as long to kill the boss as it did his minions, and when I went through with builds having good AOE, I cleared the minions about 4x faster than the boss.
i know you don’t like being disagreed with, or shown you’re wrong, even if we stretch it and argue the debate is in the subjective realm. But please atleast fn stop trying arguing about objective facts
and the game is largely aimed at doing the effects around what the tooltips says (again we know this because they’ve fixed several tooltip issues over the years be it cosmetic or actual effect being incorrect)
[quote=“Gaurhoth, post:37, topic:127678”]
how many times do i have to tell you it was clearly overlooked, even by players, even veteran players and builders, i know this from my interaction with players over the last 6 years, and we know this because build guides are using 12/12
so it was not as widely known as you say, clearly
it doesn’t matter what you knew, or what you informed people about, when it was not the “common” knowledge, lots of bugs or exploits was known, but by the minority/never highlighted in teh same sense
and when they, do usually get fixed/dev attention in some way
i can’t find that comment in any of the posts discussing this
not saying you’re wrong, maybe it’s in a different thread
but, in the end it doesn’t matter, because clearly they decided to want it fixed anyway/ended up backtracking, and they can do that
that’s another thing slipping past you, i’m using the “it wasn’t known publically” to attempt to highglight the bug/exploit nature of the 4/12/double passthrough values
when the knowledge got highlighted it got changed, just like “every” time an unintended effect has been made “public” in a way that it gets the devs attention
^this applies to almost every instance of a “bonus effect” for the player, where some part of the community, be it a handful or “large minority” knows about an effect or interaction. But the “second” it gets made “public”/widely known enough/enough widespread community attention, bug threads etc; like we had with pasthrough, then usually devs “fix” it if they deem it unintended
it’s that simple, it wasn’t “known”, because too few people knew about it/wasn’t enough attention, despite a few posts, it became “known”/it got enough attention and then devs took care of it
for the last time, hopefully, i’m goona try be slow and careful to make it clear, so maybe you will follow me this time/get my meaning
1 the devs make game
2 devs put in skill in that game
3 devs give that skill stats and tooltip reflecting the skill’s intended purpose, function and values
4 the tooltip/display = the intended purpose/original intended design
5 the tooltip requires 12/12 to reach 100% effect
^this is the important parts
6 bug/exploit allows effect to be scaled (much differently) than tooltip
^we know it’s a bug because all “wrong” passthrough interactions have been fixed over the years not just 9.8 fighting form
you’ve been relying/using/“abusing” a bug/exploit, which then may get fixed - did get changed
why are you repeating stuff that i literally posted? stuff we’ve been over 2-3x?
i know the values, i’m stating the values, i know the probability interaction with partial passthrough, we do not need to go over this again
my point is simple
going from 90%passthrough to 50% at lvl 7 is not in anyway as bad as you’re trying to make it out to be, going from 100 to 80% at lvl 8 and needing to wait until lvl 9 equally so “not as bad as you’re trying to make it out”
^i even posted a video showing how much of a non issue it is, because we’re talking about 15 minutes and in that time you’re not dealing with anything of such significance that the passthrough values/change is impacting in any remote detrimental/“painful” way or of significance, contra to your claims
for the last time, stop trying to compare other builds, with more or different aoe to Cadence, it has 0 impact or relevance
the sole argument you need to deal with here is the AoE impact for cadence itself, whether 50% and 80% is hindering the player for those 15minutes, and spoiler; it’s not
having 80% vs 100% would not significantly have improved my gameplay, in the sense you’re alluding to, for those 15minutes
it would be an improvident, yes, 50-80 is a downgrade over 90-100, yes, that is not the point, that is not my argument
the point is it’s not remotely as big of a deal or as detrimentally impactful as you’re making it out to be/trying to make it out to be, that’s been my sole argument
you are literally using the peak definition of making a mountain out of molehill with your cadence debate/passthrough impact argument, it’s that simple
again, i’m not remotely against buffing the values, i’m solely disagreeing with your portrayal of the the issue and your claims as to the influence of the issue
because those claims are straight up BS; and i have video to show how much of a non issue it is
^anyone watching that video will not see “omg lvl 7-9 so painful, what horror, i better not level ranged cadence because it god killed in 9.8 and clearly needs more lvl 7-8 passthrough”
-they might however see “holy sht i have no ST dmg it takes me 2minutes to kill a boss” and get turned off instead
it does, exactly
it “doesn’t” in your mind because what follows next:
^insert 3000% unrelated comparisons
we are not talking about XYZ class against other classes or XY other skills/builds against others
this is purely about cadence vs cadence and passthrough vs more passthrough at lvl 7-8
i have no idea how you’re counting, there are more cadence aoe hits taking place,
you have 8 instance of cadence shots dealing aoe/passthrough
you have 7 instances where it doesn’t, that’s maybe including 1-2 shots where the monster was out of “reach” in terms of arc location
rest of the times it’s cadence shots with either no way passthrough would have had any relevance, or shots getting eaten by terrain because i play like a baboon
it does not
i have not said nor argued that it feels wonderful, i’ve repeatedly said it’s fine,
and it is,
you can see with how little struggle or danger there is in my video, it’s fine
you can see that it only affecting aprox 15minutes of gameplay, it’s fine
*i’ve levelled through with and without passthrough, with 9.8 passthrough and 9.7 passthrough
and it’s why i’m making those statements, that your claims are way blown out of proportions, and that Cadence 7-8 is fine, still on 9.8
that’s the part you’re clearly struggling with not understanding what i’m telling, over and over
i’m not debating nor arguing the objective fact that values are indeed now lower/different than before
i’m saying it does not have the detrimental consequence you’re trying to make it out to be; because 9.8 cadence levelling is fine
and more so it affects the player for such a brief period of time it’s borderline inconsequential as a whole
15minutes of play, lvl 7 and 8, that’s it…
hopefully/maybe this can serve to help illustrate my point about how little it was publicly known/how widespread that knowledge actually was
grimtools have scraped exactly 1 singular ranged build using 4pt fighting form [1.0.7.1] DW Ranged Physical Cadence Tactician (no greens)
whether or not that’s deliberate here there is 0 mention of, even if it’s only a 1pt invesment that’s exactly boosted to +4, and the other alternative GTs does not change that 1pt investment (but boosted by gear to +6 still)
later comment by other than OP could suggest it’s not deliberate for 100% passthrough but just because not considered significant at the time
all the other gunner cadence either use 12pt, or more
there are 2 that use less
the other is using 8pt fighting form, [1.1.5.2-1.1.8.0] Bonemonger going ranged! Lightning DW pistols Tactician
and i seriously doubt that’s by accident since it has 5pts invested with gear boosting it to 8
^(and it’s a guide by Nery and in other of his builds he’s using 12pt fighitng form on ranged cadence) - suggesting he too wasn’t aware
*the 11pt fighting form build is by stupid_dragon, and he emphasises in his guide to “max” fighting form but not to go over 12pts, ie he too was not aware prior to a degree of influencing his, very experienced, builds
**well aware GT builds section might not have all available in existence, tho it def has most from the forum, also scrapes YT and elsewhere/reddit if the formatting fits the build scraping thingy
that is at most2 out 20 builds going back several years, some even after 2022 reveal
and that’s if we even count Nery’s which his other ranged cadence builds would suggest we shouldn’t, making it 1/20 builds, and that’s based on the assumption the 1pt investment was even deliberate and not a filler,
(will def concede it could be deliberate but it does leave room for it not being)
1 out of 20 builds since v1.0.7.0 december 2018/before FG release and after, that’s how “widespread” it was known
All of this could have been avoided if you took Zolhan’s Technique.
Like damn, this is the weirdest made up issue I have seen regarding GD, Cadence being slower at early levels.
All of you saying “just use another skill” are missing the point.
First impressions count. From a game design point of view, ideally all early skills should be delightful to use at every stage of progression. Evidently very early ranged Cadence is not, at least in comparison to other skills. And I do buy that argument based on the mathematics presented.
This something that can be improved. And there’s nothing wrong with making something better, no matter how minor. Getting even minor details right is what separates the great from the mediocre.
I haven’t read through this entire thread, but I suspect an easy fix/improvement is just to adjust the progression of the passthru rate. Start with 50% at level 1 and increase by 10% per point until level 6. That’s it.
the argument being made here, atleast by me(and a few others chiming in) is not that the 9.8 isnt’ technically a downgrade, it’s that it does not (even remotely) have the suggested “painful” impact
not only because it’s for 15mins, and 2 levels, but because you still get passthrough, even if its less
and more passthrough for 7-8, is not gonna radically change the core issue that is with ranged cadence levelling, which is single target dmg,
i’ve levelled multiple characters 1-10 since this nonsense debate started, with passthrough (rushing FF), slightly slower passthrough/grabbing few points in wps, 0 passthrough and max cadence, and 9.7 passthrough values
there is basically no “significant” difference in the current passthrough values, because the core issue is low dmg, not aoe trash clear rate
even if you slapped 100% passthrough on at level 7 it would not really be that hugely difference, because we are talking about 15minutes of gameplay (obv exaggeration, not saying there would be 0 difference),
the issue is blown way out of proportions, because the difference from now to before is pretty small in “effect” ingame for the duration and content you are playing
again, i’m not arguing against increasing the values, i’m saying it’s not as significant as attempted to be portrayed, so it’s not really “fix” to an actual issue, as it is just returning to the old/have game consistency (which is also fine) - and suggesting it is an issue, rather than whatever underlying reason/goal is at play, is dishonest (imo)
(and because i’ve actually tested/played this several times it feels like the underlying reason/goal is more personally motivated in saving 4pts than my other gripe with the dishonesty of projecting this as something for the poor new players to not suffer from)
change the values back/higher, fine, argue for that, i’d be totally ok with devs buffing the values
just stop trying to make make mountains out of molehills as to the reason for said change, make the case out of consistency, don’t try to portray this as the reason why early cadence is bad, or that the passthrough lvl 7-8 change is somehow detrimental to that affect
We’ve been over this many times, the number of points are not the point. The point is that the values assigned to the points are insufficent. I’m not talking to you when all you do is repeat the same things you’ve said before, and you insult me again after I asked you not to.
I don’t know why you keep claiming there’s no problem, when the video you posted of gameplay demonstrates that there is a big problem. Two different characters who have AOE comparable to what ranged cadence used to have were able to clear out pusquill’s minions 4x as fast as you could do with the new numbers.
An early game ranged cadence build which spends every point on the sole goal of gaining as much AOE as quickly as possible should not have 4x worse AOE than every other comparable ranged build.
Maybe you’re used to leveling characters with no AOE and more single target. If you want to level that way, even though it’s suboptimal, that’s your choice, but I see no reason why people who do want to max out AOE to level more efficiently should be punished because you don’t level that way.
they are not, my vids demonstrates this perfectly in how simply and comfortably they deal with the enemies
it does not, there is no threat, cumbersome impact, or significant reduce in clear speed for cadence
you are comparing it to 2 other irrelevant skills, when the sole comparison here in this vid/fight is about 50% passthrough vs 90%, that’s the only relevant metric, and it has very less significance than you’re trying to suggest
is 3000% irrelecant to this discussion or the cadence change
again, deal with cadence itsel, you’re dealing with 2 instances of change
first being 50 vs 90% value at lvl 7, my video shows characters are playing and fighitng aoe fights just fine at 50% - and the change impacts a grand total of 7 shots; all the other shots the changes has 0 influence on
next is lvl 8 80% passthrough vs 100%, this is also a very insignificant impact in levelling and gameplay effect, but more importantly, way less than you’re suggesting or trying to suggest
it would not be much different on 9.7
what part are you not getting here?, the other builds, the other classes, the other better aoe skills would still be better, significantly so, because the aoe/passthrough value is not the major factor going on there
it’s the cadence dmg itself, you’re firing too few shots for the passthrough values to have significant impact overall, meanwhile your cadence dmg is low from rushing FF so you still take multiple cadence shots to kill a single trash mob, even with passthrough, this is bad,
more passthrough would not improve that much, because you’re not shooting 15enemies in a single shot, you’re shooting 2-5, so the dmg reduct on passthrough is way less than you think/suggest, because it’s affecting few enemies at a given time
it’s not about being used to, i’m telling you, i’m showing you video of stuff that is now
i’ve levelled multiple characters since this debate started, i’m not running on memories here like you migh think, i’ve actually played this stuff in the past 48hours, multiple times, to compare,
and that’s why my conclusion is what i’m saying, that it’s not remotely as impactful as you suggest or are trying to make it out to be; Because i actually tried it
you’re running on assumptions based on numbers/math of the passthrough formula, instead of actually playing it and feeling and seeing how less of a detrimental impact it is, contra to how big an issue you suggest it is
i’ve played it i’m not running on probability or past characters i’m playing this as is, i’ve spent hours at this point levelling multiple different cadence chars in various different ways to find the detrimental difference, and it’s just not there
unsure if it needs highlighting a 5th time, i’m not against returning the values, i’m against your entire portrayal of this
this is probably the “worst case scenario” in terms of aoe clear, since 0 passthrough/not even taking zolhan
and it’s still fine, levelling time even similar,
the earlier 2/3 instances i mentioned of passthrough mattering is also at display here, viloth cave and putrid den
*levelling time is similar/lvl 9 time, this video records fully to lvl 10 so there is an extra 10’ish minutes from that
ten chars