Nope.
Yeah. I said this in my post on the issues forum.
And this results in an effective 8.3% chance to hit 3 targets, and a 1% chance to hit 6. All that for a total cost of 19 points. 1 point in Zolhan’s Technique gives you a 12% chance to hit as many targets as will line up neatly for you, for a total of 11 points.
The thing you’re trying to “debunk” me with is something I’ve already said and explained.
that… is the exact same qualifier for fighting form? wth is even the point?
literally does,
gave you the numbers, it’s 1.3 levels, there is no biggie; because you do not suddenly detrimentally suffer, nor hit a wall, from reaching 100% passthrough 1.3 levels later, much less when we’re talking levels 8-9, much less when we’re also factoring in how fast you level - even without xp pot etc
you are making up issues and stuff that is not a thing, so you “yup”
Just tried levelling ranged Cadence (ended with a two handed gun) - Veteran level 1 - 11 - one point into Cadence, than raising the mastery bar to 15/50 - getting 8 points into Fighting Form (afterwards - all points into Cadence)
The main issue with this path is low damage - killing heroes takes quite some time (well - not investing into Cadence), but otherwise, it was still a rather normal (not the quickest or most easy route, but certaintly not the worst) experience. But yeah, getting Fighting Form up to 8/12 allows a different playstyle and increased the fun - especially after getting some Cadence levels to actual to some damage with that passthrough shot (so here in level 10/11)
I really wish I’d heard they were doing nerfs to gunslingers while the patch was still playtesting.
There are two nerfs to gunslingers, one to blade burst, and one to cadence (affecting 2H as well). I’ve verified both nerfs, the blade burst one by sound (each blade burst plays its own sound, so two of them going off near-simultaneously sounds different than one), and cadence by testing points in fighting form from 1 to 8. The new amount of passthrough for fighting form is (points + 2) * 10%, so starting from 30%, and increasing by 10% per point (100% passthrough at 8 points).
I’ve been playing both kinds of gunslinger for years, and I can verify that both old behaviors have been consistent since before either of the expansions came out.
It’s not clear how much the nerf to gunslinger Blade Burst will affect builds. I don’t know how often double blade burst used to happen. The two most likely answers are (1) it happened randomly, and how many shots would have been fired for a default attack determine how many blade bursts happen, or (2) it happened every time. If it’s (1), that’s a 1/3rd reduction in AOE hit damage, and it’s a reduction by half for (2).
Unlike most gunslingers, blade burst can significantly rely on damage over time to kill weak enemies, and that would be unaffected, but the only way to find out the extent of the change is to playtest it. This change will significantly affect fights with multiple tough enemies, like crucible.
I had been working on leveling several characters for the purpose of making leveling guides for various kinds of blade burst gunslingers. Most of that work will probably have to be thrown out now.
I’m not sure why blade burst gunslingers needed a nerf in the first place.
The nerf to ranged cadence primarily affects leveling, by making leveling advice for ranged cadence far more complicated, and making the ordinary leveling path significantly more grindy.
The ordinary leveling path for ranged cadence is 1 point in cadence, 4 in fighting form, then rushing to deadly momentum. The only problem with this leveling advice is kyzogg is a bit of a slog if you fight him with cadence at level 5 or 6, since you don’t get AOE until level 7. But that can be solved with any random level 5 component.
But with the new patch, the grind continues until level 9, if you level with cadence. But you can also level with Zolhan’s Techinique, which has the disadvantage of leveling with zero points in skills until level 4, and only 2 points in at level 5. Nevertheless, it is so much more powerful that cadence doesn’t catch up until level 9.
But also, if leveling with Zolhan’s Technique is better than cadence, that opens another can of worms: what’s your other mastery? Depending on what it is, it might be better to level with that other mastery’s wps.
But also, because of the sudden new dependence on the exact number of skillpoints available, it’s suddenly relevant whether or not you have an elite or ultimate token, and it’s relevant whether you can use the token prior to level 5, so it also matters whether you have Crucible.
So now, to obtain the appropriate leveling advice for a ranged cadence build, you need to have a flowchart of information, including what the player’s other mastery is (and if they’re playing shaman, whether or not they’re using 2H or pistols), whether they have elite or ultimate tokens, and whether or not they have access to crucible. And mastery they use, the path they take through it, and whether or not they need respecs depends on all of these many pieces of information.
Ranged cadence was already at a disadvantage compared to every other ranged build, which all get AOE by level 5. But because kyzogg + the shrine + turning in quests gets you to level 7, and that’s when you get AOE, it was fine. Now ranged cadence either sucks to level with, or else you have to have a very careful plan about how exactly to do it, which not everyone has access to.
Early game leveling should not need to be this complicated, and ranged cadence didn’t need a nerf to early game leveling. Early game leveling was already ranged cadence’s weakness.
Same to you.
No, that’s not obvious at all.
What it looks like they did was to work on the display bug, then come up with initial values, starting from 30% because they were going for round numbers and 33% was the previous display value for 1 point.
The problem with the values being way too low is not obvious by looking at the numbers. So they put it out.
There is no indication that the devs decided that early game leveling for ranged cadence needed to be hard in levels 7 and 8. Nor is there reason to expect that they want that.
i’m literally the opposite of blowing things out of proportions, i’m “unblowing” things and saying how they are
you are saying cadence levelling is detrimentally impacted now, it’s not, because the change is not that big, and it’s for 1 level
which is dishonest, and incorrect in everyway you’re trying to portray it, with the exception of listing the passthrough %values - everything is borderline bs
what, how is it not “obvious”, *they made the change man! - you’re seriously suggesting Z, who made the change because of double effect, ergo knowing 100% passthrough was at 4pts, and it’s now at 8, did not make that change because of thinking the values were right in his mind, knowing full well it would change values and at which points 100% passthough was obtained
or are you suggesting he pulled numbers from his ass, randomly arbitrarily unknowingly arrived at 8pts for 100% passthrougg, and XY % at lower levels while not being aware of making changes/lowering stuff?
Z, the numbers guy, the man with the tables, master of spreadsheets, - yes i’m sure it slipped totally past him 
sure
but your argument isn’t just for higher values, it’s doubling the values/“maintaining the bug”, which they were clearly, obviously, against; otherwise they wouldnt’ have “fixed” it and changed the values to be twice as low compared to with the bug
and no one is saying that nor suggesting that, except for you
to which i’m disagreeing, and maybe the devs also dont’ think Cadence is or was going to be as detrimentally diminished as you claim
*fyi, just like Coyote, in the time we’ve spent forth and back i’ve done 2 cadence rounds
it’s fine
the main issue with early game cadence levellign is not reaching 100% passthrough a level later or even the initial 2pts passthrough values (again not against reverting that keep in mind); the issue is 1pt cadence suuuuucks
it takes you way too many shots to kill stuff, not just heroes, which is horrendous, and higher passthrough aint gonna fix that, but you’re also taking 3 shots to kill trash. Passthrough would help somewhat on that after lvl 7, but it’s also not even necessary/detrimental, because stuff is easily ranged anyway, and trash is the least of the issues there
Just use Forcewave to level, it’s much quicker. Cadence is one of the skills that only shines in the late and really endgame and Cadence is not alone in this.
Stop calling me names.
I have seen no indication whatsoever that the devs intended to make the leveling experience worse. I have seen clear indication that they meant to resolve the issue where the listed values and the actual values were different.
It seems likely that they made a deliberate decision to add 4 required points to fighting form.
I have never argued for maintaining the bug. I have instead argued for high enough initial values to be useable at level 7, to avoid painful leveling.
At level 7 and 8 you are, and it’s a problem where it wasn’t before because of the significantly increased monster density.
But if the passthrough values were appropriately buffed, you wouldn’t be killing 1 trash mob in 3 shots, you’d be killing a whole group of them in 3 shots.
because it required 12 to intendedly reach it before? - i already said it seems very much like they decided to split the difference between the bug and old tooltip/old intended design
and it’s not painful, is what i’ve been saying over and over, because you still get 50% passthrough, which is fine, and from then on you’re only 1 level behind in passthrough values and until getting full passthough
it is not, again, while we talked yday i ran multiple cadence character through, it’s not an issue for cadence/the pass through values, and the veteran monster density is not really impacting in a significant way because you’re that low level
losing some limp dmg aoe clear is not as big a deal has just having a crappy low dmg 1pt skill that triggers 1/3attacks
which you can still do, at lower chance/“1 character lvel behind %values”
what you want is exactly the same as keeping the bug, because you want to keep the high bug inflicted values, which, since it got changed to require 8pts, seems like that’s very much not what was the aim
No, that’s incorrect.
It required 4 points to max it out before. That has been consistent behavior over the past 7 years.
It requires 8 now.
It has never required 12. What used to require 12 was to get the display to say it had maxed out. But even for people who mistakenly thought 12 was required, there never was an issue with insufficient AOE. Putting too many points into fighting form cannot cause insufficient AOE, and it does not hurt leveling.
That value is not fine.
I think you’re confusing the per hit passthrough chance with a chance to get AOE. It doesn’t work like that.
50% passthrough is not a 50% chance for 100% passthrough. If it were, that would still not be enough, as it only goes off every 3 hits, so that situation would give you a 16.7% equivalent chance.
A 50% passthrough chance gives an 8.3% chance per shot to hit 3 targets, and a 1% chance to hit 6.
That is not adequate or even close to adequate.
I think you’ve confused the low AOE for low damage for cadence itself. With adequate AOE, cadence was always fine to level at 1 point.
what part are you not grasping? this is getting pretty annoying my man
the tooltip required 12pts to reach 100%; ergo this was originally the intended amount to reach 100% passthrough,
we know this because the devs fixed it the moment it was made public
you’ve been relying on an unintended bug we know this because it was fixed when it was made public; otherwise the devs would not have changed the values nor altered the amount of points required in one way or the other; because it got lowered from 12->8 in the process; this very clearly makes it a conscious choice that either way 4 was not the intended amount
the devs would not have set a tooltip description/requirement of 100% at 12 if they didn’t originally intend it, nor would they have changed it to 8 after the bug fix; if they had ever intended it to be 4, that part is clear as day to anyone
“consistent behaviour” doesn’t matter if it’s unintended, that is why we’ve seen multiple “fixes” over the years when they were made public
it made those that didn’t know about it wastes skill points, spending 8more skill points than necessary during low level is exactly impactful to levelling, and is more impactful than not having 100% passthrough a level later
it is fine, i’ve run multiple cadence trials since this, you even saw Coyote chime in, the issue is not the passthrough value nor the time it takes to reach 100%, the issue is mainly ST dmg for Veteran
i’m very well aware of the math/probability behind partial passthrough; and i’m still telling you it’s fine, because i’ve played it since the change
it’s the same adequate now, and it’s the same sucky now, there is almost no difference, i know this because i’ve levelled cadence multiple times since 9.8 now, the passthrough amount of fine, it lacks STdmg when you go the 1pt route that’s it, the passthrough amount is fine and does not hinder you very much nor is that impactful in detriment as you’re trying to make it out to be
there is basically “exactly” 3 instances where the passthrough change impacted something a little bit from 7-9
these are the only instances where going from 90’ish? to 50% passthrough at lvl 7 and 100% down to 80% at lvl 8 has any remote significant impact/change, and even then the impact is not very big and most affects a potential totem encounter because the other scenarios were still just regular trash enemies/not heros and multiple hard spawns
here, this is how much of a non-issue this is
for 15minutes you have a bit/40-20% less passthrough than before
*timestamped it when the passthrough interaction takes effect at lvl 7 and ends/“equalizes” at lvl 9
**Putrid Den encounter at 24.44
***incase it wasn’t clear: this is not suffering/bad/detrimental or any" significant" downgrade “causing issues”, remotely
apologies for the late post for some reason it took YT several hours to both upload and process a mere 4gb file @_@
Video title… 
I watched your video, and it does not demonstrate what you claim.
Looking at the first fight after level 7, you faced off against 2 eyeballs, 5 zombies, and 7 bugs.
Total monsters killed: 14
Total shots fired: 32
Total cadence shots fired: 10
Total instances of 2 monsters hit: 3
Total instances of more than 2 monsters hit: 0
Total number of monsters killed by AOE: 3
Extra hits per successful AOE shot: 1
Looking at your fight against pusquill and his minions, I counted 29 minions.
Against the minions:
Shots fired: 97
Cadence shots: ~32
Total AOE instances: 5
Total monsters killed by AOE: 9
Average shots fired per kill: 3.34
Extra hits per successful AOE shot: 1.8
Against pusquill:
Shots fired: 98
Total shots fired against pusquill and his minions: 195
You took as many shots against pusquill as you did his minions. You complained about how many shots pusquill took, but you’re okay with his minions taking just as many.
I took a fire strike guy at level 8 and a blade burst guy at level 7 through pusquill and his minions.
Fire strike:
Minions: 22 shots
Pusquill: ~82 shots
Total shots: ~104
How much easier to kill pusquill than his minions? 3.73x
Blade burst:
Minions: 26 shots
Pusquill: ~120 shots
Total shots: ~146
How much easier to kill pusquill than his minions? 4.61x
Before I started counting the numbers, I took a level 9 or so guy with points in Zolhan’s Technique only through pusquill and minions, and it felt similar.
Going through pusquill’s minions should be about 4x easier than pusquill himself. For the nerfed cadence, it’s about the same. AOE is now approximately four times harder than it used to be.
That feels bad. It doesn’t matter how many times you insist on it being wonderful, it’s not.
I don’t see the issue here?? Like, you don’t have to use ranged Cadence as an early leveling skill…
Sure, you can. But you don’t have to. Is it painful? Depends on your perspective. There are more efficient ways to level, that’s for sure! If you really wanna use it, go for it. It’s not gonna be the best. Like for Demo, levelling early with FS is a PITA. You can do it, yeah. But it’s undeniably more efficient to use BWC for the early stages.
Nothing has ever required 12 points.
This is factually incorrect in two ways.
First, it has been made public repeatedly over years. I saw it on some forum on the internet 7 years ago. It was a public post, which could be seen by others. For the last 2-3 years or more, I’ve been on the grim dawn subreddit, where I’ve announced it in public on the internet multiple times. When I got on this forum last year, I announced it again, probably multiple times before someone got interested.
Second, it was not fixed when people on this forum started discussing it. Instead, we got feedback from the devs saying this was a display bug, and it would not be fixed.
I don’t think either when it was fixed or when it was known is in any way relevant to anything. There is no real point in discussing things that aren’t relevant.
Nothing got lowered from 12 → 8. Unless you’re talking about display values only, which don’t affect gameplay.
This is factually incorrect.
That the tooltip got people to spend 8 skill points does not need to be mentioned again, as everyone reading this thread has heard me say it and you say it repeatedly. We’re aware.
But the claim that it impacted leveling is false. When considering leveling advice for a guide I’m working on, I considered mentioning to people that it would be more effective to dump extra points into fighting form for awhile.
Putting extra points in hurt builds in the endgame. At the point in the game we’re talking about, putting too many points in helps.
Delay in getting 100% passthrough is not the issue. The issue is that passthrough amounts along the way are too small to provide effective AOE at a point in the game where effective AOE is needed.
The old values are:
1 point: 66%
2 points: 78%
3 points: 90%
4 points: 100%
If you dump as many points as possible in fighting form, as soon as possible, you get 90% at level 7 and 100% at level 8.
Using new values and dumping as many as possible gives you 50% at level 7, 80% at level 8, and 100% at level 9.
With old values:
Level 7: 27% chance to hit 3 monsters, 19.6% chance to hit 6 monsters
Level 8: 33.3% chance for any number of monsters
With new values:
Level 7: 8.3% chance to hit 3, 1% chance to hit 6
Level 8: 21.3% chance to hit 3, 10.9% chance to hit 6
Hitting only 3 monsters is weak AOE, 6 is moderate AOE.
For comparison, a 20% chance for a wps with guaranteed passthrough which can hit any number of monsters with no limit feels inadequate, but not quite unusable, and a 25% chance for a wps with guaranteed passthrough with no monster limit feels adequate.
And clearly it has a strong impact. When you went through pusquill and minions on your video, it took you as long to kill the boss as it did his minions, and when I went through with builds having good AOE, I cleared the minions about 4x faster than the boss.
can you stop bullshitting please?
i know you don’t like being disagreed with, or shown you’re wrong, even if we stretch it and argue the debate is in the subjective realm. But please atleast fn stop trying arguing about objective facts
and the game is largely aimed at doing the effects around what the tooltips says (again we know this because they’ve fixed several tooltip issues over the years be it cosmetic or actual effect being incorrect)
[quote=“Gaurhoth, post:37, topic:127678”]
how many times do i have to tell you it was clearly overlooked, even by players, even veteran players and builders, i know this from my interaction with players over the last 6 years, and we know this because build guides are using 12/12
so it was not as widely known as you say, clearly
it doesn’t matter what you knew, or what you informed people about, when it was not the “common” knowledge, lots of bugs or exploits was known, but by the minority/never highlighted in teh same sense
and when they, do usually get fixed/dev attention in some way
i can’t find that comment in any of the posts discussing this
not saying you’re wrong, maybe it’s in a different thread
but, in the end it doesn’t matter, because clearly they decided to want it fixed anyway/ended up backtracking, and they can do that
that’s another thing slipping past you, i’m using the “it wasn’t known publically” to attempt to highglight the bug/exploit nature of the 4/12/double passthrough values
when the knowledge got highlighted it got changed, just like “every” time an unintended effect has been made “public” in a way that it gets the devs attention
^this applies to almost every instance of a “bonus effect” for the player, where some part of the community, be it a handful or “large minority” knows about an effect or interaction. But the “second” it gets made “public”/widely known enough/enough widespread community attention, bug threads etc; like we had with pasthrough, then usually devs “fix” it if they deem it unintended
it’s that simple, it wasn’t “known”, because too few people knew about it/wasn’t enough attention, despite a few posts, it became “known”/it got enough attention and then devs took care of it
for the last time, hopefully, i’m goona try be slow and careful to make it clear, so maybe you will follow me this time/get my meaning
1 the devs make game
2 devs put in skill in that game
3 devs give that skill stats and tooltip reflecting the skill’s intended purpose, function and values
4 the tooltip/display = the intended purpose/original intended design
5 the tooltip requires 12/12 to reach 100% effect
^this is the important parts
6 bug/exploit allows effect to be scaled (much differently) than tooltip
^we know it’s a bug because all “wrong” passthrough interactions have been fixed over the years not just 9.8 fighting form
you’ve been relying/using/“abusing” a bug/exploit, which then may get fixed - did get changed
why are you repeating stuff that i literally posted? stuff we’ve been over 2-3x?
i know the values, i’m stating the values, i know the probability interaction with partial passthrough, we do not need to go over this again
my point is simple
going from 90%passthrough to 50% at lvl 7 is not in anyway as bad as you’re trying to make it out to be, going from 100 to 80% at lvl 8 and needing to wait until lvl 9 equally so “not as bad as you’re trying to make it out”
^i even posted a video showing how much of a non issue it is, because we’re talking about 15 minutes and in that time you’re not dealing with anything of such significance that the passthrough values/change is impacting in any remote detrimental/“painful” way or of significance, contra to your claims
for the last time, stop trying to compare other builds, with more or different aoe to Cadence, it has 0 impact or relevance
the sole argument you need to deal with here is the AoE impact for cadence itself, whether 50% and 80% is hindering the player for those 15minutes, and spoiler; it’s not
having 80% vs 100% would not significantly have improved my gameplay, in the sense you’re alluding to, for those 15minutes
it would be an improvident, yes, 50-80 is a downgrade over 90-100, yes, that is not the point, that is not my argument
the point is it’s not remotely as big of a deal or as detrimentally impactful as you’re making it out to be/trying to make it out to be, that’s been my sole argument
you are literally using the peak definition of making a mountain out of molehill with your cadence debate/passthrough impact argument, it’s that simple
again, i’m not remotely against buffing the values, i’m solely disagreeing with your portrayal of the the issue and your claims as to the influence of the issue
because those claims are straight up BS; and i have video to show how much of a non issue it is
^anyone watching that video will not see “omg lvl 7-9 so painful, what horror, i better not level ranged cadence because it god killed in 9.8 and clearly needs more lvl 7-8 passthrough”
-they might however see “holy sht i have no ST dmg it takes me 2minutes to kill a boss” and get turned off instead
it does, exactly
it “doesn’t” in your mind because what follows next:
^insert 3000% unrelated comparisons
we are not talking about XYZ class against other classes or XY other skills/builds against others
this is purely about cadence vs cadence and passthrough vs more passthrough at lvl 7-8
i have no idea how you’re counting, there are more cadence aoe hits taking place,
you have 8 instance of cadence shots dealing aoe/passthrough
you have 7 instances where it doesn’t, that’s maybe including 1-2 shots where the monster was out of “reach” in terms of arc location
rest of the times it’s cadence shots with either no way passthrough would have had any relevance, or shots getting eaten by terrain because i play like a baboon
it does not
i have not said nor argued that it feels wonderful, i’ve repeatedly said it’s fine,
and it is,
you can see with how little struggle or danger there is in my video, it’s fine
you can see that it only affecting aprox 15minutes of gameplay, it’s fine
*i’ve levelled through with and without passthrough, with 9.8 passthrough and 9.7 passthrough
and it’s why i’m making those statements, that your claims are way blown out of proportions, and that Cadence 7-8 is fine, still on 9.8
that’s the part you’re clearly struggling with not understanding what i’m telling, over and over
i’m not debating nor arguing the objective fact that values are indeed now lower/different than before
i’m saying it does not have the detrimental consequence you’re trying to make it out to be; because 9.8 cadence levelling is fine
and more so it affects the player for such a brief period of time it’s borderline inconsequential as a whole
15minutes of play, lvl 7 and 8, that’s it…
hopefully/maybe this can serve to help illustrate my point about how little it was publicly known/how widespread that knowledge actually was
grimtools have scraped exactly 1 singular ranged build using 4pt fighting form [1.0.7.1] DW Ranged Physical Cadence Tactician (no greens)
whether or not that’s deliberate here there is 0 mention of, even if it’s only a 1pt invesment that’s exactly boosted to +4, and the other alternative GTs does not change that 1pt investment (but boosted by gear to +6 still)
later comment by other than OP could suggest it’s not deliberate for 100% passthrough but just because not considered significant at the time
all the other gunner cadence either use 12pt, or more
there are 2 that use less
one is a build using 1pt that gets boosted to +7; but it’s a fire strike build not actually using cadence [1.1.7.2] [Commando] Antiquated Armaments
the other is using 8pt fighting form, [1.1.5.2-1.1.8.0] Bonemonger going ranged! Lightning DW pistols Tactician
and i seriously doubt that’s by accident since it has 5pts invested with gear boosting it to 8
^(and it’s a guide by Nery and in other of his builds he’s using 12pt fighitng form on ranged cadence) - suggesting he too wasn’t aware
*the 11pt fighting form build is by stupid_dragon, and he emphasises in his guide to “max” fighting form but not to go over 12pts, ie he too was not aware prior to a degree of influencing his, very experienced, builds
**well aware GT builds section might not have all available in existence, tho it def has most from the forum, also scrapes YT and elsewhere/reddit if the formatting fits the build scraping thingy
that is at most 2 out 20 builds going back several years, some even after 2022 reveal
and that’s if we even count Nery’s which his other ranged cadence builds would suggest we shouldn’t, making it 1/20 builds, and that’s based on the assumption the 1pt investment was even deliberate and not a filler,
(will def concede it could be deliberate but it does leave room for it not being)
1 out of 20 builds since v1.0.7.0 december 2018/before FG release and after, that’s how “widespread” it was known
once again
All of this could have been avoided if you took Zolhan’s Technique.
Like damn, this is the weirdest made up issue I have seen regarding GD, Cadence being slower at early levels. 
