Elemental Harmony set balancing suggestions

We all know it - the epic ring set that sends fire and cold spiralling out from your character. And we’ve all seen how much it gets used. :stuck_out_tongue: Whether its fire, cold, elemental or some kind of Beronath-style conversion build, its a very popular set, and with good reason.

Personally, I think the set is bit overpowered, and could do with some tuning to bring it more in line with other similar rings. While I don’t think the set particularly needs any changes as to what it does, I feel like some of the numbers could definitely do with being toned down, particularly in regards to the set bonuses.

  1. The flat damage bonus is kind of insane. At 32 flat damage per ring, it offers (consistently, at least) the most flat damage on any ring in the entire game, with most not coming even close, sitting at around the 10-16 mark on average (with a bunch of max rolls sitting at around 20ish). The only ring that does come close is Mythical Glyph of Kelphat’Zoth, offering 34 flat damage at the absolute maximum roll (and due to lightning’s damage range, it’ll often be much lower). However, this number is split between lightning and vitality, and most builds to my knowledge are probably only going to make use of one of these. Finding fire and cold together, however, seems a lot more common, especially when you consider the average Inquisitor build.

While you could argue that 32 fire/32 cold is fair because you have to complete the set to get it, I don’t really see this to be much of a setback. While the stats on the rings themselves are nothing amazing (albeit still good), they’re also similar enough that any person picking one probably won’t mind picking the other anyway. If you run fire/cold, you probably want more fire/cold. If you run ABB, you probably want LA. If you run FS, you probably want ES. If you want OA…etc.

Long story short, I feel like the 32 fire/cold bonuses should be halved to somewhere around the 16 mark. Quite a dramatic reduction, but the original numbers were quite dramatic outliers. The reduction won’t kill your build, even if it only uses one of the two damage types, but it’ll bring the rings more in line with the rest, and builds that focus on both damage types at once will still be rewarded. Besides, you still have that juicy proc, which brings me onto…

  1. The juicy proc, Elemental Force. The “if your build didn’t look like a firework show, it does now” proc. :stuck_out_tongue:

(15% chance on attack)
0.8 Second Skill Recharge
100% Chance to pass through Enemies
0.3 Meter Radius
15% Weapon Damage
150-230 Fire Damage
150-230 Cold Damage

…and seems to pretty much keep on going forever until it hits a wall.

Possibly the closest comparison to Elemental Force is the similarly named…Elemental Force, courtesy of Mythical Reign of Ice and Fire.

(10% chance on attack)
0.8 Second Skill Recharge
100% Chance to pass through Enemies
0.3 Meter Radius
192 Fire Damage
192 Cold Damage
33% Chance of 220 Burn Damage over 2 Seconds
33% Chance of 220 Frostburn Damage over 2 Seconds

Again, seems to go forever until it hits a wall.

In fact, a lot of that ring screams “I am the souped-up version of Elemental Harmony”, but then it goes and decides not to have any flat damage on it whatsoever, which is kind of an issue when EH’s flat damage totals 64. The fact that you can equip two of these rings though does balance things a bit at least, especially when it comes to the proc.

As for EH’s proc, even though it looks good, I’m not entirely sure it needs too much adjustment, since you can reach a similar dps with some other epic ring procs, especially if you equip two of the same one. That said, maybe it could do with a slight downwards nudge, simply because the ring set does still offer a significant chunk of flat damage, even if it gets reduced to the values I suggested. Hard to say with certainty, really.

As for the weapon damage on EH’s proc, I’m…fine with it, I guess? Casters need sustain too, after all, and it gives them something to work with since not all caster builds will be drowning in enough weapon damage to make use of ADCtH. Honestly though, I’m not too sure how good it even is from a health recovery standpoint, so if anybody wants to chip in, go for it. The proc itself is near constant on a lot of builds though, so in large crowds I imagine it might at least do something. If the health recovery is significant, it’s definitely an advantage it has over the Ice and Fire ring proc, which is a bit weird for an epic being compared to its closest legendary version. In terms of raw non-weapon damage however, the Ice and Fire proc does seem to win out, especially on a damage-per-ring-slot basis.

So yeah, I’m not 100% sure on what to do with the proc. If the 64 flat damage on EH remains as is, I feel like the proc should definitely be toned down. I think the 64 flat is more important to deal with though, personally. Even on legendary rings that would be a bit “whoa”, never mind relatively easily obtainable epics.

So…thoughts? I don’t really ever make threads like this, so apologies if its kind of a mess. :stuck_out_tongue:

My thought - set is fine as it is.

First of all, to equip it, you have to have certain level of gear because those rings are very glassy and offer minimal amount of resists (elemental ones that are usually useless on builds that take Elemental Harmony) and no DA. And for some builds it’s very hard to make up for all the stuff that those rings are missing on other slots.

Secondly, on a lot of builds (basically all non-Purifiers) you are sacrificing quite a few possible skill points and possible ring slot with resist reduction.

So I wouldn’t change it, but I would change Ice and Fire proc to proc of runes/wind devils and such, because rings are meant for casters but for a lot of casters it only procs of Censure which is not that great.

This set was created in time, when Saboteur wasnt a meme class. And Gunslinger was the worst thing you can create in Creed.
I suggest to wait for Inquisitor nerfs before rushing trough items and scrapping usable stuff out of dmg just because someone is shooting autoatacks at 600-1200WD%

BTW w/o Justicar set, or Stonehide boots of GDstashing these rings dont fit most builds at all.

It’s 32 flat but you need to equip both rings since it’s a set bonus. Set bonuses need to be better than an alone stat on a single item.

I have also thought from day 1 that this set was way over-the-top. Significant flat damage, speed boosts, reliable proc with %wpn damage (and thus sustain)…

And it has no terrain problems unlike the legendary Fire and Ice.

As for the lack of resists, meh…so many augments and various gear to tweak the holes.

I had considered a post on this long ago, but my GAF factor is lessening every day.

Edit: oh yah, the other very questionable pair are the Judicator Seal Set. The proc is a bit strong.

Yeah, I get that, it just seemed like a little much to have higher than average flat damage and then a proc with high uptime on top of that for good measure.

Seems like the set as a whole does seem to be more focused on weapon damage though, what with WD% on the proc as well as FS and ABB support, especially in comparison to Mythical Reign which seems to lean more towards the caster side of things. I can see why having higher flat damage values on EH might be worth it then if that’s its focus. That said, I still wouldn’t mind seeing either the flat damage or the proc take a bit of a hit, but it seems like reception is mixed so far on that front. :stuck_out_tongue:

Nerfing Judicators and Elemental Harmony? Are those Zantai’s alt accounts or something? What’s wrong with you guys?

As I have already said and Ptiro confirmed it, Elemental Harmony is hard to use without Stoneplate Greaves of Kings of GDtstashing and it’s definitely not for every build. I think their value will drop significantly in Forgotten Gods.

As for Judicators, are you for real, Hallyhamster1? Perfectly balanced rings, imo. There is a reason that you don’t see them on EVERY build, it’s because, well, they are perfectly balanced can be good for some builds and borderline useless for others.

Please stop asking for nerfs and instead ask for buffs of weaker items and skills. We are not in MMORPG.

I am curious, how can saboteur be good in the past? Is it the Nerf on demolitionist make it not available anymore?

I hope the devs not gone over the top in nerfing Inquisitor. Purifier may become a meme class if it does happen.

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I dont mind nerfs, but saying like 32/32 flat fire/cold is too much when you can stak up to 950 flat vitality on dw build or over 1.3k flat chaos on 2h is funny.
And outside of fire/elemental autoatackers these rings never worth it.
Ring of Ice and fire is only used on Rune builds. Cause artifact handling.
Vitality/chaos/aether never use them. Cold prefere blue/purple alamos with better stats.

You can find Jaja old build. It was good. Originaly these rings added like 150 flat cold/fire during proc. Then come Warpfire nerf(90% conversion down to 45%). Then come some other nerf and the build was stripped of former glory.

No DA, awful resists, no health or other defensive stats.
Sure the proc, flat damage, DA and attack speed are nice but it cost you quite bit in terms of defense. Combine that with needing to use both of them to get the full benefits and I say its balanced enough.

Edit: oh yah, the other very questionable pair are the Judicator Seal Set. The proc is a bit strong.

If the proc triggered on hit, sure. But as it is on kill I don’t think it deserves a nerf.

EB rings are ok. No need for buffs or nerfs.

What I’d like to see is a True Elemental Harmony set with a lighting amulet on top.

I believe you guys think this ring is OP because there are so many build use them. The thing is the rings js just good, not OP. Outside of double or triple elemental build, you will only use either 32 flat cold or flat fire. In fact, single elemental build that used this will only be fire build because THERE IS NO BETTER OPTIONS!

Cold build (other than saboteur with chillflame scepter) has no reason to use this because alkamos rings exist.

The procs is good, and that’s about it.

Just please you guys, have some fun and ask for buff on weaker items instead of nerfing good items. I am still in the middle of adapting to the new crucible and you guys are still running rampant in trying to Nerf all of my favorite items…

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I believe you guys think this ring is OP because there are so many build use them.

The only build that use them are fire/elemental auto atackers. That`it. There is no “many” builds, its a single type of builds.
If they were OuPIe as OP described them, then you would see them on every build with non-matching dmg type and conversion.

What was it like or 4 right? The melee glory days

Can’t be that hard considering three of your most recent builds, Malakor’s Denial, Fire Ants and Elemental Noob-Noob all use this ring set and none of them use Stoneplate of Kings, but okay. :eek:

Seems like my idea is pretty unpopular anyway. Fair enough.

I love how people remember the names of my fun builds that I made just to meme out on oupie-ness of Tacticians and Vindicators. :smiley:

Well, yes, all of them use them, because all of them are Fire or Elemental auto-attackers. But that’s just Fire and Elemental auto-attackers, there are plenty of build types that are completely different.

The reason you are seeing them so often is because meta shifted a lot towards auto-attackers with weapon damage and Elemental auto-attackers have strongest item support in-game, imo.

There’s been several drastic changes lately, but honestly not everything that’s popular needs to be nerfed: keeping the fun in the game is important as well.
Having some staple items that are relatively easy to get doesn’t just make them good for endgame builds, but also for intermediate builds.
If they were the absolute only option that everyone uses on Fire/Cold builds then it’d be something else, but there are various options such as Alkamos’, Judicator’s, etc. that are viable too.
(Combustion Band is unattractive though and could use some changes.)

Keep in mind that the rings in question give virtually no defenses at all and have niche skill bonuses, I can count on one hand the times I’ve used them in a build because it’s hard to build around their limitations without specific items/mastery skills that make up the missing defensive stats.
This is especially so if you don’t use editors: it’s fine if you use them to test builds, but the game can’t be balanced around builds that use perfect items or double rare MIs that you will normally never see.

If any changes on these rings were made, they should be small at best IMO.
A small reduction in the flat damage or the WD% would be reasonable.
Personally I think they’re fine as they are though, if you look at the bigger picture.

Saboteur has two masteries that don’t offer much in the way of defensive stats (although Nightblade has some good Phys Res in Dual Blades and DA on Shadow Dance). Furthermore, in terms of Physique/Cunning/Spirit, neither mastery bar gives you a terribly large amount of these stats either.

The upside of running Saboteur is the immense synergy between Fire Strike and the dualblades line along with the fantastic amount of flat damage one can accrue. However that also runs into the issue of point starvation.

The point starvation issue was somewhat mitigated with the release of AoM (it was not totally solved and Sabo’s are still tough to put together) but the other two issues - drought of core stats and utility stats alike - were only exacerbated in the presence of higher-level enemies. Saboteur related gear is not especially powerful, either, and is usually not explicitly for Saboteur. Nex/Ortus is a good exception to this rule, though, and at last the set is somewhat usable.

TL;DR highlevel content made Saboteurs’ lack of stats truly punishing to play around.

I’d have less of an issue with Elemental Harmony if they weren’t Epics.

points at:

Mythical Widow’s Sting
The Magelord set
Misery of Alkamos
I don’t see the problem.