Endgame balancing problem

^This. It’s one of the reasons why after all this time I still haven’t done mods very much yet. I’m trying to save them more for when Crate is truly “done” with GD.

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This is just wrong.

Yes and no…Deathmarked is an exception. Warborn too.

+1 to this.

I think my rancor feedback is evident of this. People often undervalue/trivialize the pivotal role piloting styles play in a builds performance.

Everyone who tested my PB rancor build said it was way too squishy, but I found it just fine for my tastes.

Same with @mad_lee’s chaos aar spec. He was hitting 6:30’s with it, and I was hitting ~6:50’s.

This. I was PM’ing maya recently. If the issue is with crucible clear times, then maybe only allow the next wave to spawn after a minimum amount of time

If the goal is to REALLY make 7 minutes the fastest a build can go, then that’s all you have to do - i.e. next wave will only spawn after 21s or until everything has been killed, whichever comes last.

Not true IMO. At higher shards, you’ll only ever really see tanks or pill pushers.

HUGE +1.

@strannik: Crucible allows greater build diversity, and offers sufficienct consistency for crafters to qunatitatively compare builds. Furthermore, it also has sufficient RNG to enrue that a spec is designed well.

ahh…fluff and his 'tato PC brings back memories. It was like watching a flip book animation

@strannik - this is by and large true, save for builds which are reliant on ulzuin’s buff for energy management.

Can’t help but feel a little responsible for this, so apologies if I am. :confused:

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Very much so depends on the slot. +All, set, and skillmod slots still weigh too heavily toward Legendaries. Hopefully affix and epic rework can address this slightly but outside extreme niches I don’t foresee weapons or helmets meeting much competition with MIs.

Yeah, I meant the slots that people usually use MIs/greens in (pants, boots, etc.)
I’ve been hoping for improved MI helm stats as well but without a +1 on them they can almost never compete with the blue/purple offerings.

QFT. I can’t think of a single green helm which is build enabling.

One possible exception before FG was released?

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Ahh…but @thejabrixone doesn’t count because he always does the weird and wonderful.

I was talking to @plasmodermic about this actually, because we both happened to be coincidentally working on builds using temporal arcblade.

It’s hard to pin point exactly what about the weapon makes it so strong because these are builds which are reliant on a whole slew of different damage sources.

But I think it can be said with quite a fair bit of certainty that it is the proc which is enabling the build to hit such clear times.

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Why delete it?

@powbam - I thought we’ve established that I’m an idiot. :stuck_out_tongue:

It’s been a long day, and I must’ve misread it as I was glancing through this thread. ^^

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Not sure if serious… but if serious, slow-down, take a couple breathes and read it a lil slower. The answer is there.


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Expanding off this to offer a solution (which I was too busy to type on my phone at the time of the first post…) which I wholly don’t believe Zantai would like nor do I anticipate any of it to be implemented, especially in lieu of the allegedly overwhelming work that has already been/is being done with affixes.

There are three slots in which I could see “fixing” MIs to compete with Legendaries, and those are the Weapon, Helmet, and Torso slots. I don’t think Shoulder MIs will ever be viable because Legendary set and non-set Shoulders tend to be amazing and they appear in sets more often than Torsos do, which is really the only thing weighing Torso MIs down. Looking at what presently exists for Shoulder MIs, you’ll actually find some incredibly powerful stuff, but outside of the odd Nightblade build using Fabius or Zantarin Shoulders, nothing is really used (shoutout to IM Shoulders for giving +3 Cadence though, where other competition gives +2). Ring/Amulet/Medal MIs are already somewhat competitive, as are Boots/Pants. Hands (of which there’s some worse-Stoneplates and nothing more) and belts (of which there are several) are pretty much dead in the water, in my opinion. The conversions added with the +all skills in belts made the MIs far too narrowly designed to compete with the broad spectrum of support offered by the non-converting Legendary class belts.



MI Weapons I think need the most help. Outside niches where they serve a role as a stat stick (mostly happens with 2H or Focii) they don’t really compete at all, on paper or in practice, with Legendary counterparts. The coveted Barthollem Warmaul is overshadowed by Shar’zul’s. The overwhelmingly-rare Bloodlord’s Blade is a worse Fang of Ch’thon. And both Barthollem’s and Bloodlord’s are incredibly strong. Bonespike is really the only MI worth a damn and even then, that’s for a very select purpose.

In most cases, I’d want to see +skills and skill modifiers offloaded to weapon prefixes while suffixes get (more) procs/granted skills, generally offensive. There is a rationale for that split, mainly being in that most % Speed increases happen on the suffix side of things, so one’s choice would be between a higher proc rate (speed) or higher potential proc count.

As to the prefixes, offloading the current narrow-focus of one MI to randomized elements such as affixes makes the right affix combo that much more desirable. The base weapons themselves could, in turn, receive +All skills to one mastery (two tops, but I can’t think of a case where I think it’s necessary), which would keep the base item somewhat strong and competitive with more mundane uniques while making +skills more target-farmable than it presently is, as well as much more highly desirable with the perfect combination of affixes.

Estimated Power Creep Impact

At a very high end of things, it’s hard to tell. There’s some damn strong Legendaries out there. Whether the above would even manage to compete with Shar’zul’s or Fang of Ch’thon, it’s tough to say. I think it’d be a competitive scene for sure, but I don’t think MIs under the above changes would necessarily push too far ahead of Legendaries on a uniform basis, even with godrolls.

The middle spectrum of play wouldn’t change much, in my opinion. Most players would find an MI with +all skills (base item) and then a rare/magic affix combo, which would grant them either a solid proc/skill or some skill modifiers which may or may not be relevant to their build. Legendaries would tend to outperform non-perfect MIs.

At the lower end of play I think there’d be a significant power jump as players can get a cheap +all skill boost relatively easily.


Helmets are somewhat simpler, with a slight inverse of what I suggested with weapons. I’d suggest giving the rare-tier class-specific prefixes (Assassin’s, etc.) +1 all skills to that class and a skill modifier relevant to the skill in question which they give a bonus to. I’d then leave more or less everything else alone; some armor suffixes are pretty solid already and I’d imagine many of those that aren’t are already being decently touched up in the upcoming patch.

Estimated Power Creep Impact

Arcanists, Demolitionists, Necromancers, and Inquisitors benefit from this the most, I think. For the former three, that’s because the currently-existing MI helmets are enticing relative to the currently-existing sets involved that a bump like this may begin to make some things more competitive. Inquisitor already has strong set helmets but it also already has a strong MI helmet…or three. Infiltrators/Mage Hunters would probably spiral ahead, but that can be toned back with less-impactful skill modifiers.

At high ends of play, sets probably still push through. The proposed changes above really only make MIs competitive with the base helmets which are part of sets (which greatly goes to show you both how strong individual set items are and how currently-far-behind MIs are) and they do nothing to address the set bonuses you’d receive for going 4/4 or 5/5. So nothing changes there.

I’d think this would be a bigger buff for the middle tier of play where sets are partially finished but not completely. MIs might round out some of the missing bonuses.

As with weapons, there’d be a significant power jump. That mostly goes for any broad-spectrum buff to anything in the game (other than enemies). The low end of casual or new players will benefit much more from buffs than the higher end (which is maybe why we on the forums are more vocal about the more-noticeable nerfs and less thankful for all the buffs we get…)


I’d suggest improving MI Torsos by making Legendary legs better…and that’s it. The current state of affairs is this: Legendary legs suck so much because they don’t offer adequate resists or enticing +skill bonuses, and their procs tend to be pretty lackluster or just downright harmful (such as the now-removed Fear procs, or the still-existing knockdown procs). MI legs have very solid +skill bonuses and otherwise serve as resistance dumps.

If Legendary legs could better compete with their MI brethren, players would look for some other spot to get a resistance dump. My bet is on torsos, which - while heavily occupied by sets - are not as demanded of as Shoulders (mentioned above) and tend to be worse than their relevant shoulderpieces anyways. MI chest armor already has build-enabling conversions and while its +skill selection isn’t great (it’s actually pretty piss-poor to be honest) I think it’s enough for a resistance item.

Estimated Power Creep Impact

Little to none. This proposition really just serves to swap the Green/Purple meta from Legs/Torso to Torso/Legs. Again, lower-end would benefit more from this than higher-end, and long-term at the highest echelons of play, Legendary sets probably still hold dominant. But there’d be more room for creativity, at least.

Shoutout to Legplates of Valor, by the way. Bluebois Represent!



I suggest you read up on game mechanics in the guide/tutorial section.

Everything about this is just straight up w.r.o.n.g.


I’m still waiting to see if these ever find their place in the game, or if they need something further.

On-block trigger to on-any hit. Pierce res to a resistance that people actually need. +OA or +DA.

Also for some reason they have Light Armor (not Caster Armor) armor values. That’s always bugged me. I’d bump them up to Heavy Armor (Physique req. included, which who cares with those skill bonuses?) and give them Heavy Armor Armor.

Concur. That would do it. I wouldn’t mind it being primarily for shield users if it was better for shield users…

On hit is still a better activator for shield users that lack 100% recovery/100% chance. If you absolutely want a shield-specific benefit, give it 4-5% recovery as well. That’s fairly unique and hasn’t been seen on legs before, so MIs wouldn’t compete.

Problem with vit damage auto attacking specs (which I’m guessing is what this pants is trying to support) is that it’s extremely difficult to build up healthy AS as they aren’t rings/gloves which really provide that stat.

Gladiator’s Distinction outta nowhere!