Endgame balancing problem

Expanding off this to offer a solution (which I was too busy to type on my phone at the time of the first post…) which I wholly don’t believe Zantai would like nor do I anticipate any of it to be implemented, especially in lieu of the allegedly overwhelming work that has already been/is being done with affixes.

There are three slots in which I could see “fixing” MIs to compete with Legendaries, and those are the Weapon, Helmet, and Torso slots. I don’t think Shoulder MIs will ever be viable because Legendary set and non-set Shoulders tend to be amazing and they appear in sets more often than Torsos do, which is really the only thing weighing Torso MIs down. Looking at what presently exists for Shoulder MIs, you’ll actually find some incredibly powerful stuff, but outside of the odd Nightblade build using Fabius or Zantarin Shoulders, nothing is really used (shoutout to IM Shoulders for giving +3 Cadence though, where other competition gives +2). Ring/Amulet/Medal MIs are already somewhat competitive, as are Boots/Pants. Hands (of which there’s some worse-Stoneplates and nothing more) and belts (of which there are several) are pretty much dead in the water, in my opinion. The conversions added with the +all skills in belts made the MIs far too narrowly designed to compete with the broad spectrum of support offered by the non-converting Legendary class belts.

Anyways

Weapons

MI Weapons I think need the most help. Outside niches where they serve a role as a stat stick (mostly happens with 2H or Focii) they don’t really compete at all, on paper or in practice, with Legendary counterparts. The coveted Barthollem Warmaul is overshadowed by Shar’zul’s. The overwhelmingly-rare Bloodlord’s Blade is a worse Fang of Ch’thon. And both Barthollem’s and Bloodlord’s are incredibly strong. Bonespike is really the only MI worth a damn and even then, that’s for a very select purpose.

In most cases, I’d want to see +skills and skill modifiers offloaded to weapon prefixes while suffixes get (more) procs/granted skills, generally offensive. There is a rationale for that split, mainly being in that most % Speed increases happen on the suffix side of things, so one’s choice would be between a higher proc rate (speed) or higher potential proc count.

As to the prefixes, offloading the current narrow-focus of one MI to randomized elements such as affixes makes the right affix combo that much more desirable. The base weapons themselves could, in turn, receive +All skills to one mastery (two tops, but I can’t think of a case where I think it’s necessary), which would keep the base item somewhat strong and competitive with more mundane uniques while making +skills more target-farmable than it presently is, as well as much more highly desirable with the perfect combination of affixes.

Estimated Power Creep Impact

At a very high end of things, it’s hard to tell. There’s some damn strong Legendaries out there. Whether the above would even manage to compete with Shar’zul’s or Fang of Ch’thon, it’s tough to say. I think it’d be a competitive scene for sure, but I don’t think MIs under the above changes would necessarily push too far ahead of Legendaries on a uniform basis, even with godrolls.

The middle spectrum of play wouldn’t change much, in my opinion. Most players would find an MI with +all skills (base item) and then a rare/magic affix combo, which would grant them either a solid proc/skill or some skill modifiers which may or may not be relevant to their build. Legendaries would tend to outperform non-perfect MIs.

At the lower end of play I think there’d be a significant power jump as players can get a cheap +all skill boost relatively easily.

Helmets

Helmets are somewhat simpler, with a slight inverse of what I suggested with weapons. I’d suggest giving the rare-tier class-specific prefixes (Assassin’s, etc.) +1 all skills to that class and a skill modifier relevant to the skill in question which they give a bonus to. I’d then leave more or less everything else alone; some armor suffixes are pretty solid already and I’d imagine many of those that aren’t are already being decently touched up in the upcoming patch.

Estimated Power Creep Impact

Arcanists, Demolitionists, Necromancers, and Inquisitors benefit from this the most, I think. For the former three, that’s because the currently-existing MI helmets are enticing relative to the currently-existing sets involved that a bump like this may begin to make some things more competitive. Inquisitor already has strong set helmets but it also already has a strong MI helmet…or three. Infiltrators/Mage Hunters would probably spiral ahead, but that can be toned back with less-impactful skill modifiers.

At high ends of play, sets probably still push through. The proposed changes above really only make MIs competitive with the base helmets which are part of sets (which greatly goes to show you both how strong individual set items are and how currently-far-behind MIs are) and they do nothing to address the set bonuses you’d receive for going 4/4 or 5/5. So nothing changes there.

I’d think this would be a bigger buff for the middle tier of play where sets are partially finished but not completely. MIs might round out some of the missing bonuses.

As with weapons, there’d be a significant power jump. That mostly goes for any broad-spectrum buff to anything in the game (other than enemies). The low end of casual or new players will benefit much more from buffs than the higher end (which is maybe why we on the forums are more vocal about the more-noticeable nerfs and less thankful for all the buffs we get…)

Torsos

I’d suggest improving MI Torsos by making Legendary legs better…and that’s it. The current state of affairs is this: Legendary legs suck so much because they don’t offer adequate resists or enticing +skill bonuses, and their procs tend to be pretty lackluster or just downright harmful (such as the now-removed Fear procs, or the still-existing knockdown procs). MI legs have very solid +skill bonuses and otherwise serve as resistance dumps.

If Legendary legs could better compete with their MI brethren, players would look for some other spot to get a resistance dump. My bet is on torsos, which - while heavily occupied by sets - are not as demanded of as Shoulders (mentioned above) and tend to be worse than their relevant shoulderpieces anyways. MI chest armor already has build-enabling conversions and while its +skill selection isn’t great (it’s actually pretty piss-poor to be honest) I think it’s enough for a resistance item.

Estimated Power Creep Impact

Little to none. This proposition really just serves to swap the Green/Purple meta from Legs/Torso to Torso/Legs. Again, lower-end would benefit more from this than higher-end, and long-term at the highest echelons of play, Legendary sets probably still hold dominant. But there’d be more room for creativity, at least.

Shoutout to Legplates of Valor, by the way. Bluebois Represent!


/thesis

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I suggest you read up on game mechanics in the guide/tutorial section.

Everything about this is just straight up w.r.o.n.g.

https://www.grimtools.com/db/items/8204

I’m still waiting to see if these ever find their place in the game, or if they need something further.

On-block trigger to on-any hit. Pierce res to a resistance that people actually need. +OA or +DA.

Also for some reason they have Light Armor (not Caster Armor) armor values. That’s always bugged me. I’d bump them up to Heavy Armor (Physique req. included, which who cares with those skill bonuses?) and give them Heavy Armor Armor.

Concur. That would do it. I wouldn’t mind it being primarily for shield users if it was better for shield users…

On hit is still a better activator for shield users that lack 100% recovery/100% chance. If you absolutely want a shield-specific benefit, give it 4-5% recovery as well. That’s fairly unique and hasn’t been seen on legs before, so MIs wouldn’t compete.

Problem with vit damage auto attacking specs (which I’m guessing is what this pants is trying to support) is that it’s extremely difficult to build up healthy AS as they aren’t rings/gloves which really provide that stat.

Gladiator’s Distinction outta nowhere!

Isn’t glad distinction physical damage?

P.S - returning to my original point, this lack of AS is made all the more evident on 2H vit autoattackers, and is probably one of the biggest reasons (among several others) why vitality-rotgheist-primal-strike is such a joke.

@Evil_Baka - right. thanks for that clarification

Gladiator’s Distinction: 100% Vitality pants converted to Physical pants.

Chausses of Barbaros though, that’s a wall to beat. I guess Dread Knight’s would be a defensive counterpart?

I would actually use it on an acid build, what with the high vit/acid conversion you can get.

Did some digging in the “super-secret-OP-builds” chat group and found one of my untested theorycrafts I had thrown up there.

https://www.grimtools.com/calc/YVWOzOyV

Everything looks good, minus the DA problem

What does that have to do with game mechanics?

You don’t understand what I mean.
Here is an example.
The build I’ve been playing lately - https://www.grimtools.com/calc/YNn6Y4ON (tnx Mad lee, i used your build)

all he was wearing was taken from the game stash (non cheats) after a Level 94 character was captured. Approximately 100 levels were taken final powder, build bought the final version. And that’s it, the pumping is complete.
I started to walk in the shards, passed 65.

Question - how can I improve my build? More powerful items? Better ingredients and powders?
It’s nothing in the game.
All my pumping remained at level 94. That’s what I meant. It took me 10 minutes to get the items out of the trunk.

I founded about 20 Valdun rifles and a few parties of Valdun set. They were all thrown away like garbage.

Can I knock out more powerful items (legendaries with affixes) to strengthen the character? No. Can I reinforce this build to pass 70-80-90 shards? No.
These numbers are conditional. The principle itself is important. When I get everything too early and have no opportunity to improve the character in the future - I’m not interested in playing them.
Since the developer does not plan to change anything, I will just play either a modification or I will finish the game at all, because I don’t like mods very much.
So it has nothing to do with mechanics.

There are some MI Items that are really great but usually they fell short in competing against legendary weapons. For example Sparkthrower is the best weapon for Thunderous Strike builds. Chillstrifes are my favorite items in the game. Loxx daggers are your go to weapons for Shadow Strike Spellbreaker. So there are some examples for green being good.

But usually they are outclassed. Skill points are major reason, especially obvious to 2h weapons, since they have often +2 or even +3 class skills. So it’s basically impossible to compete.

Another problem for green MI’s is sometimes matched skill bonuses as legendary gear. For example, who will select green lightning 2h weapon instead of Ultos axe and brake the set?

Yes, because everyone that plays the game has every item in the game.

Your argument becomes really silly when you played for 6000 hours. So you have every legendary in the game? If the game had affixes to them from the start, in that amount of time you would have most of them anyway. You are really just want to artificially extend progression because you are bored with the game.

You got every item in the game and played for 6000 hours. Good. Now either keep playing or play something else if you are bored. Don’t try to force things into the game people don’t want because you are bored with the game. Which doesn’t matter anyway because Zantai already said they are not adding affixes to legendaries.

All builds can be improved based on a players preferred piloting style.

Sure, take lee’s valdun purifier, which is straightforward enough to play, and you don’t have a lot of LEE-way (buh dum tss).

Personalizing your spec by making tweaks to the build guide you’re following is the first step into theorycrafting.

It has everything to do with game mechanics.

Yes, I’ve had all the legendary items I planned to use for the game for a long time.
I do not like the fact that the pumping of the character takes the final form at 94 levels and does not go further.
I do not know why I need to go and look for more items that I already have and they are the same.
Simply put, I spent 20 hours pumping the character from 1 to 100 levels. That’s enough to go through the campaign, the crucible, the shards.
I want to develop this character not for 20 hours, but for 200 hours. I want to walk and look for sinister mythical Valdun rifle of piercing darkness (for example). That’s the kind of gameplay you need in the game. Grind, more grind for better results and parametres
Which MI item will be better than the Valdun rifle and replace me with a full set bonus, huh?

ps I don’t see the point in repeating myself anymore.
If you don’t understand or don’t want to understand. If everything suits you, I am not going to fight with windmills.
Thats all.

With all due respect, sir - If you want that experience, make your own builds.

I say this not with the intention of telling you to stfu, but to explain to you those 200 hours cannot be found if you are following someone’s build because they’ve done all that work for you.

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I think I understand now. You seem to be bored of the game because you are not playing your own builds.

Try making your own builds from the ground up, think of a concept or a goal and try to make it work… You’ll be spending time with your build after lvl 94 for sure. Playing someone else’s build is not as fullfilling as creating your own. You know, there’s a sense of pride and accomplishment in that. Maybe you are just missing that feeling.
I’ve played some top forum builds too in the past, but they never gave me that level of fun I had from my own builds, even if they performed better. I played them only to see, learn, and get inspired. Or to beat a certain celestial because I needed the helmet for my own build :wink:

what kind of work did they for me?
I’m looking for all items myself.
The fact that I used someone else’s build only means that I don’t want to do building and testing.
I have my own version of this build, and it uses 99% of the same items. And what’s next, the pumping and development ended in both versions in the same way. On the 94th level.

Are you suggesting for me to turn the game into a calculator?

If there’s nothing left in the game but making up and testing builds, then there’s really nothing else to do.
I started the game three times from total zero. I don’t want to do it anymore.
Even if I spend time on my own builds, it won’t save me from the pointlessness of pumping them after level 94. There are no goals and no sense in late game, not in the beginning or in the middle.

I don’t want to finish pumping any character in 20 hours. You need to be able to improve them in hundreds of hours, killing monsters. But since Zantai said no, it means no. His game - his rules.

If you want something like the paragon system from D3, you are playing the wrong game.