You basically missed my point and didn’t understand everything. I was not talking about how you cast them, but about the values. I said that Devouring Swarm is arguable, I never said it’s unfair. Guardians, on the other hand, are unfrair as fuck if we talk about physical RR. 35% physical RR which can be raised to 45 literally by accident is unfair.
I theorycrafted few builds with Oathkeeper, and even though I didn’t care about Oathkeeper mastery nor about Celestial Presence, I’ve been ending up with 18+ level with Celestial presence, mostly level 21/22. Yet, people still bitch at Warlords being OP because “Warlords” (that’s the “reason” I always see). But okay, if that should stay at 35 - 45, make it 35 reduced physical resist instead of -35% RR. Physical damage shreds the most resists in the game, there’s no other damage type that can shred more resists than physical.
Bleeding is literally second in that ranking, but as it’s a DoT and you usually can’t get any on-hit damage, but always DoT, it’s fair. Physical damage is reduced by armor, but let’s say you deal 100k per hit, enemy has 2600 armor, because it’s a nemesis monster, and they 5 and 25 physical resist (except for Kaisan iirc), you basically have reduced damage by 2600, but increased by 90% (assuming it’s a nemesis with 25% physical resist), so you deal 100 000 - 2600 = 97 400 * 1.9 = 185 060 damage per hit. And, before you say “other damage types can reach the same values”, physical damage does THIS much increased damage vs. about 80% of the monsters of the game, if not more.
So let’s make one thing clear - you wrote this wall of text just because of phys res on Celestial Presence? Because that’s literally the only way my post can be received as “missed point”
Where? I stopped seeing Warlord bitching since derped phys retal was fixed.
Let’s just delete it instead then.
Um, what?
The reason why phys resist values are like this is the existence of armor.
That’s not how it works, unless that 100k is derived from a single chunk of flat phys.
And 100% of monsters have armor.
Seriously, not convincing. I’ve seen examples how a very similar build with similar amount of flat damage and RR but one phys and the other isn’t did a very different damage, not in phys favour. Yoy want phys you need something that hits like a truck.
Not really. I basically made it just so people can talk about it vastly, but as for me Celestial Presence was the reason. I first wanted to make a thread about only this skill, but then people would come out and bitch that there are other RRs that are way stronger then Celestial presence, which is not true.
Armor reduces player’s damage by a very small percentage. Unless it’s applied to the base damage, which I doubt since most projectile/shotgun skills would effectively deal negative damage. Boss+ monsters have 2000+ armor, while everything under that has way lower values.
To clarify, Super bosses (Ravager, Callagadra, Mogdrogen) have 4000 armor.
If you play a skater build (Vire’s Might spamming) then you can keep bosses 10 meters away 90% of the time if you want, even if it’s Iron Maiden, Reaper, Grava, etc. Fabius and Lokarr’s shadow strikes are so slow you have to stand still and wait for them to hit you.
I agree with @Stupid_Dragon that you did not consider application speed. This is effectively relevant to the values. In my case Guardians are not as good as on paper because in most fights they apply RR to my target 1~2 seconds later than I starting to do damage. That means if I fight 5 seconds and kill the target, then RR from Guardians is effectively 0 (!!) in 20-40% of the time, which is a huge loss in DPS. Meanwhile CoF can have 100% uptime due to I casting them before going to close combat.
I think Guardians would be OP if it has a charge / shadow strike skill, but they don’t so I think they’re just OK.
Edit:
I’ve never thought about that, it actually seems to be a good idea in my case, I’ll try this to see if it can solve my problems with the guardians. Thanks!
other than devouring swarm vitality gets some of the worst debuffs. as username said spectral binding requires you to get hit, debuff from cursebearer ring requires you to get hit (25%), signet of fallen is like 20% chance on crit (lol) and then we have rattosh constellation which is probably one of those most underpowered outer tier constellations which has like a 15% chance of proccing so you pretty much need to put the devotion on your main attack.
Meanwhile guardians of empyrion can just speed buff around the battlefield debuffing groups of enemies instantaneously for -35-40%, making them superior to most other RR debuffs lol. even better than wind devils becasue you dont need to be constantly casting them. aura of censure is like automatic aoe debuff with huge range.
And here we have poor battlemages… not even going into this lol
if you are killing something in 5 seconds without debuff from guardians then im not really sure their RR would have been that relevant. besides they apply their debuff almost instantly when they are near a mob.
Yeah but you need to wait for them to get close to enemies, but then their movement speed is so slow compared to vire’s might and other mobility skills. If you’re lucky they’ll teleport near you but very often they just don’t, then you have to wait them to run half of the screen to catch up. Even worse sometimes they don’t chase you and just attack whatever near them, and you have to use Pet Attack.
I don’t play crucible but from what I’ve seen from videos melting a nemesis in 5s is quite common, and I’m sure RR is relevant, otherwise why do people use RR in crucible at all?
Edit: but yeah maybe it’s just a problem to skater builds because other builds don’t move that often.
25 reduced target’s resistances from bwc Agonizing Flames
-40% fire resistance from the Thermite Mine aura.
-23% fire resistance from Eldritch Fire (solael’s witchblade)
20% reduced target’s elemental resistances from Viper.
calculation tldr
Normally you are right.
vs 0 fire res: (25+40+23)*1.2 = 105.6% total damage modification.
vs 18 fire res: (25+40+23-18)*1.2 = 84% total damage modification (most nemesis)
vs 50 fire res: (25+40+23-50)*1.2 = 45.6% total damage modification (Banjo and Theodin fall into this category)
vs 78 fire res: (25+40+23-78)*1.2 = 12% total damage modification. (This is Gargabol)
vs 118 fire res: (25+40+23-118)*0,8 = -24% total damage modification. (Shar’Zul of course)
But, let’s do this with a shieldbreaker and the magnificiently supported -55% fire resistance Guardians of empyrion.
vs 0 fire res: (25+55+40+23)*1.2 = 171.6% total damage modification.
vs 18 fire res: (25+55+40+23-18)*1.2 = 150% total damage modification (most nemesis)
vs 50 fire res: (25+55+40+23-50)*1.2 = 111.6% total damage modification (Banjo and Theodin fall into this category)
vs 78 fire res: (25+55+40+23-78)*1.2 = 78% total damage modification. (This is Gargabol)
vs 118 fire res: (25+55+40+23-118)*1.2 = 30% total damage modification. (Shar’Zul of course)
In summary:
against 0%, Shieldbreaker deals 32.1% more damage.
against 18%, Shieldbreaker deals 35.8% more damage.
against 50%, Shieldbreaker deals 45.3% more damage.
and now we go to the Gargabol range.
against 78%, Shieldbreaker deals 58.9% more damage.
and finally the Shar’Zul heavyweight category:
against 118%, Shieldbreaker deals 71.1% more damage.
Let’s not even get into something like battlemage. RR is not merely a bonus, or a flavor thing now. it’s a bare necessity in the endgame.
That’s assuming Sorcerer and SB do more or less the same flat damage, while Sorcerer gets Devastation and SB is a mortar trap all in build.
But I agree that out of all three Pyran classes SB probably punches the most. During the testing I suggested to shift some of the set’s power from mortars to devastation somehow to even things out.
yeah and assassins blade pretty much requires you to have a very high crit chance and having to put it on your main attack for it to be applied quickly. One thing i would like to see is scales of ulcama improved greatly, almost no one uses it at the moment. 20% chance when hit, only affects a single enemy and has a 1.5 second cd. The 22 flat RR is nice but the devotion skill is really underpar.
This thread reeks of “not knowing how Armor works.”
As a reminder, keep in mind that individual sources of +Flat Physical Damage are evaluated against a target’s armor on their own. So a 100k hit against an enemy with 2600 Armor is going to be quite likely mitigated by a lot more than 2600.
To physical resist itself, it’s an outright lie that Physical RR can approach other damage types. Physical usually sits around 90-110% RR whereas Lightning and Aether can push 150%, with Vitality being even higher still. Physical RR is very middle-of-the-pack relative to everything else.
Furthermore, I’d love to see one of these “OP Warlords” everyone keeps talking about. Other than the odd Ravager killer with twenty trillion Armor, Warlords seem to have fallen from grace quite significantly since the RATA fix.
And it also accounts for sources of converted into physical damage too.
Say Eye of Reckoning. You convert the fire to physical with Beronath Sword.
That converted fire damage will get individual check against armor, it will not be added with the original flat physical on EoR to form a total flat physical damage of EoR.
Well, Warlords, without any thinking, can reach over 3k armor and 3k DA. Every time I theorycraft a Warlord I have 3k+ DA and armor, and at max 30 attribute points spent in physique. Not to mention physical resist sits at a nice 20+ all the time, damage is super high, crit damage is there at 30+ and HP is always at 14k+. It’s like Warlords are the answer for anything, want to kill a super boss or secret boss? Warlords. Want to perform well in high SR? Warlord… Whenever I want to build something different than a Warlord, I have to spend few hours on it, but crafting a Warlord is like up to 1 hour and I am done, that’s how easy it is. Building a retaliation Oppressor took me about 6 hours + adjustments, bleeding EoR about 3, acid Dervish about 4, but every Warlord is like up to 1 hour because I only think what I want to do and just put everything on that character and it looks super good, meanwhile the other characters have questionable stats, like low physical resist, low DA, and other important stuff being low or non-existent.