[Feedback] How to nerf N&O and keep it alive

Grim Dawn Ideas and Feedback
21

I actually agree with Sephelutis. People no longer try to make a good build for Crucible, but rather pick what’s OP and use that.

I totally disagree. I GD stashed few builds, but before I was GD stashing, I farmed up almost every item in the game. After ~300 hours, I had literally 90% of legendary items, and, in Crucible, people don’t really use greens because they’re a pain to farm up.

I disagree again, by rushing SoT once a day, that’s up to 30 mins a day, you can get even 6 legendaries per day. Let’s say 50% of obtained legendaries are duplicates, 3 legendaries a day, 30 every 10 days, 90 a month, but even if you get one non-duplicate legendary a day, which is rather impossible, it’s 30 a month, which is also pretty damn solid. I needed 10 runs to get 17 non-duplicate legendaries when Ancient Grove came out.

Again, you can easily farm up your gear. You don’t need BiS to play Crucible, if you have some luck, you can make a super squishy build and go for wave 150, that’s not even an issue to do.

xD!

If GD doesn’t require skill, how come many people state the game is the hardest ARPG ever to exist? Why do people die on bosses? Why do people even die? In GD, if you don’t know how to play, you’ll be basically a free meat for monsters.

Crucible is not the main game, it’s pure fun. Also, who the fuck told you GD is a multiplayer game? How can a single player game ruin someone’s fun if they’re not affected by any means by other player’s gear? I often look at builds and see they’re way better than mine, but then I check closely and see that that one is quite tankier than mine, but does way less damage, and even if I have shit gear I can do way more than that build I saw in the internet. It’s not about items or GD stashing them, if you know what you’re doing, you can even do a trash-tier build and make it look OP as fuck.

Only you, only you feel like this. Every other person would say “oh, he just GD stashed it, it’ll be hard for me to get these items, but I can get similar items and be maybe even as good”. I never had issues with seeing a build having all gear GD stashed, heck, if I saw someone having a build like this I understood, because people MOSTLY only GD stash super hard MI’s to get. I personally farmed up multiple double-rare MI’s because I really love it, then I didn’t have a good build to farm with, so I just chose to GD stash some MI’s, but, believe it or not, if I get a good farming build, I’ll definitely just farm all the time, because this is the only thing I actually enjoy in this game.
Also, no player is affected by another guy GD stashing items. You are just spreading bullshit, sorry to say that.

Again, 90% of crucible players don’t even GD stash anything, as they have tons of duplicate legendaries in their stashes.

Oh, and btw, if you don’t like to GD stash items, and you trade, you’re basically GD stashing items. You’re not certain how the other player got his item, they might’ve cheated it and you’re believing he got it legitimately. Again, I totally disagree with everything you said.

22

I fear it is only going to get worse once shatter realm comes out, that competing for the highest tier is going to be quite brutal.

At the end of the day I do trust Crate’s balance since thank god spellbinder and DeathKnight in 1.0.3.0 didn’t get nerfed to oblivion like cough POE classes, but i prefer buffing other weaker class to a similar level rather than incessant need to nerf existing builds. ARPG is ment to make you feel powerful with the gears you have after all.

23

You know…there is something called “Trading”.

At the moment, I have 2 Mythical Ortus which can have anybody who wants them. Join Discord, ask me, I will open a game…done.

2nd: I don´t like Crucible. But I look a the builds people make and I see that a lot of them build the toons without “Insane MI” on purpose. So your complains and rant about these players are kind of unfair.

If you have chosen Hardcore that is your decision. Don´t blame other players for your decision.

On N&O:
Players who choose these weapons and show, how OP they are, are playing the same game. And if a lot of them say that this too much, then a decent nerf is okay.

24

I understand your point of view, but only to certain extent.

You said that you just gdstash everything for every new character that you make.

But in that case, why the hell would anybody even play crucible? I thought the main reason to even play crucible in the first place is to farm for gear. Why would anyone want to farm for anything if you can just gdstash instead?

So as far as I can understand (this extremely strange mindset), the only point of playing GD would then be to prove to someone (perhaps the forum) how powerful your (gdstashed) build is in cruci and how fast you can clear it.

Sorry guys, but seriously, just go play dota or something. GD is not the game for you, it wasn’t built for such purposes, not for such players.

I cannot stop you guys from playing this way, it’s just sad how you cannot understand how what you’re doing and then posting on forums is harmfull for a casual/HC/self found player.

If you’re a serial cruci gd stasher, it would at least be best if you’d be able to just keep that for yourself.

Or there should at least be a sub-forum titled: “Crucible gd-stashers measuring their tools.” Or something along those lines.

I know that you won’t agree, but that’s my final opinion on that topic.

25

This exactly. But it seems that’s impossible for stashers and cruci record holders to understand, because in my opinion they’re just playing the wrong game in the first place.

26

GD is not the game for you, it wasn’t built for such purposes, not for such players.

And you made this decision? Don´t think so.

27

This is a fair statement, and you were right I went on a little rant.

I just couldn’t hold those emotions in me anymore because I’ve been observing that meta for a long time and as a 100% legit HC player it always bothered me greatly.

It is just unfair to be honest, you are grinding your butt of and roleplaying for hours to get a certain piece where a gd stasher just presses a couple of buttons and gets that super-op endgame build almost instantly.

The only good thing about that is probably that those stashers never get to experience that feeling of satisfaction when rng jesus finally kicks in.

And it’s still kinda sad imo because I always thought that’s the intended way for those games to be played.

28

Wasting thousands of hours on the game = GD stashing.

This is what you’re saying. Most of Crucible players played the game thousands of hours, Mad_lee for example, he has been playing the game a ton, he either is super close to 1k or already exceeded 1k a long time ago. I own the game for like 15 - 18 months and I have 666 hours, you know why? Because I used to play daily for 3 - 6 hours a day for around 8 - 10 months, then dropped to few mins to 2 hours a day, because I had other stuff to do. If I kept on playing even 3 hours a day, I’d right now have 1350 - 1620 hours. That’s a fuckton of items. If you rush through the game, it’s like up to 15 hours (or even way less) to get to ultimate, about level 90+.

29

I wonder what the devs would say about that tbh.

I my opinion this is something similar to a debate about implementing some sort of alternate movement controls a while back. Some of the devs said that’s not the way gd was meant to function and I could definitely understand why that argument was made.

Some people just couldn’t though. I really wonder what the devs honestly think about people who use this game just for crucible records with gd stashed everything. Of course devs won’t openly say this isn’t exactly the way gameplay was intended and those people shouldn’t play the game like that, they aren’t stupid. And also of course the devs care about income first and foremost.

Also the third argument: If the game is meant to be played like that, why the hell isn’t gdstash or some other way to quickly get everything you want without grinding just implemented in vanilla? It definitely wouldn’t be extremely hard for devs just to do that and call it a day.

But if the devs could be 100% honest without fear of loosing income and stuff, then I really really highly doubt they would agree that this game was meant to be played in such fashion.

I don’t wanna argue about that topic anymore, I know I can’t change anything, so let’s just close that offtopic now.
The fact is nerfhammers are falling, another fact is that with SR things are probably getting worse in the “meta realm”.

The only question is if I’ll still have enough motivation to even buy FG when it finally releases. I’m kinda loosing it slowly but surely.

30

I honestly don’t quite understand what was the argument you were trying to make here, I’m a bit confused.:eek:

31

You can make such builds for your own without those OP items, they may deal less dmg or tanky but GD is a freelance double gears/skills building arpg, some people have fun of making effective builds, I just enjoy play campaign to see my character grows from nothing to hero. Just stop watching OP builds and you are fine.

32

When I posted my very first build here, the popular choices for pet conjurers were Sigatrev’s Chaos and Lightning Ultos builds. After trying out both, I found them to be terrible (for me personally, ymmv). I tried pet cabalists and ritualists for a bit before giving up on them too.

To my disappointment, there wasn’t any build that felt right for me. And after realizing that no one else was going to do it for me, I started working on my own build(s). And I succeeded, atleast to a certain extent. Ofcourse I could have kept it to myself and had no need to post it, but did it anyways because there might be someone who perhaps would find it useful.

And ofcourse my first 2 builds had GDStashed double rare MIs that this very same GDStashing community very passionately told me would be hard to get legitimately and so its use to others will be limited. So, after that I took to building them with items you could easily get via trading or even playing self found.

You are correct that I don’t really get anything by farming the crucible. I don’t even pick up any items anymore. Hell, I use Ravager and Mogdrogen as my measuring stick rather than how the build performs in the crucible. But the crucible does provide a decent testing ground to see how a build performs in general. And if it can be assembled legitimately by others, then the method the creator of the particular build used is irrelevant, is it not?

33

Most of you completely missed my main argument, which was about nerfhammers.

Why does nerfs happen?
Because of self found legit players that play the game as intended most of the time and don’t have an infinite ammount of time for GD farming every day?

I strongly doubt so.

I never had absolutely anything against anyone that plays as they like if they feel like it.
They only problem is their actions also impacting other people that perhaps don’t wanna be impacted by that and want to play the game as intended.
If that wouldn’t be the case, then you could mod GD into super mario and I absolutely don’t give a shit, just do whatever you want.

34

That’s your opinion. I understand and I can respect that if you stopped at this paragraph.

Those players ruin the game for everybody because of resulting nerf hammers. My opinion is that certain gear in this game should definitely be “OP” so to speak, because it is extremely hard for a 100% legit player to even obtain such gear. Even on softcore, except if you’re a no-lifer. I sadly have a life besides GD and I also play some other games, so I cannot grind GD 24/7, but I also don’t wanna cheat and gd stash either.

If you thought the game woldn’t have the same nerfs he had and will have if the GDstashers then you’re living in a fantasy world. When the cheaters are out then the hardcore (the player type, not the game mode) players will come (and this has a lot of overlap with the gdstashers, most of us are experienced players who get bored of levelling tons of alts but has a lot of ideas), if you remove them then the casual players who had a lucky N&O drop in a single BoC run will come, and even if you get them out, then there are bound to be stupid people that would probably think soiled trousers are OP cause how does shit kill people. As long as there are players that have opinions and devs willing to listen to opinions then there will be nerfs. GDstash only makes them aroudn 40-60 hours faster (approx. the time it takes to level a char from scratch).

But novadays it seems those SC gd-stashing crucible maniac community which is sadly the prevalent faction in GD right now is dictating how the things will be. It seems even devs are falling blindly into this GD stash crucible meta trap because they act just like those crucible stashers. Like making an endgame build is a thing which can be done in minutes for everybody.

Possibly just make the GD stash a part of the vanilla game and everybody will be happy.

That red text… Funny how you’re also blaming devs. Crate made Grim Dawn for a niche audience, they have stated that multiple times. They don’t need to please the bigger audience. This whole “there should be OP items in the game so that it’s fun” isn’t their design philosophy. Will they lose players? Maybe they’re on the verge of losing you, but not every game out there needs the playerbase of LoL.

Bottom line is I don’t even comprehend how the game would be enjoyable for anyone who plays like that, and it is a very sad state that we’re in.

The problem with this and any other ARPG is that those type of games require very little skill to be succesfull and are relying on gear instead. But what is even the reason to play those games in the first place if you don’t need a lot of skill, and on top of that you can also make anything you want in minutes.

The game looses all appeal in my opinion. On top of that you’re also causing a lot of harm to the players who don’t wanna gd stash and cruci all the time.

Bottom line is I don’t even comprehend how the game would be enjoyable not only for those who want to see sparkles and have fun with it but also for those who want to exercise their brains, find the most powerful things and play with it.

The problem with this and any other ARPG is that those type of games require very little skill to be successful and are relying on build ideas instead. But where is the fun of having those ideas that you won’t even be able to try cause you need to level shit again and you have a life? Not to mention you’ve done that exact same thing tens of times already and have the gear to make those ideas work even without cheating anyway.

Thing is farming (purples, that is) becomes real easy once you reach a certain point. This GDstash problem you’re talking about has only really surfaced after this patch, and that’s because the veteran players got bored of the levelling process but still wants to do a lot endgame. If we had powerlevelling like in MMOs then we would totally do it, but the best thing we got is Lokarr and potions and that still gets stale after some time. I’m repeating myself a lot here but I hope you got the point.

You are ruining the experience for role players and especially HC players

If you’re a role player you don’t care about balance. You just wanna play whatever shit you want. period. If you’re and HC player wanting to do the easy way that’s why you don’t want the OP items nerfed then you don’t deserve HC. That’s supposed to be hard, not easy.

Crucible stashers, please go play something else, this is just not a game for you. Seriously, why don’t those guys just go play a competitive game instead? It is plenty of options to brag and boast in those communities.

Crucible stashers, please go play Grim Dawn, this is totally a game for you. Seriously, why the fuck would Crate add a mode that shouldn’t be played? And allow a tool that shouldn’t be used? It is plenty of options to test your creativity and brains.

TL;DR: Even if the GDStashers gtfo it wouldn’t change anything. Don’t blame Crate for listening to the customers it wanted to listen to. and some things

35

I dare say, all endgame gear is “OP” in a sense, some items just stand out to the point where they overshadow other options; and when you are a min-maxer, what is the point of the dozens of other choices when option A is 20% faster?

So we close that gap.

I can’t think of a nerf we’ve made that “ruined the experience” for the more casual audience.

The combinations of gear we are talking about here are so potent, that they trivialize campaign content. I think they will do just fine if they trivialize campaign content by a few % less. :smiley:

I’d appreciate it if you didn’t tell other players in the community the game is not meant for them. :wink:

The ARPG audience is one of the most diverse gaming groups I can think of, and we work hard to cater to all subsets of it with a variety of content. There is no need to push your point of view by undermining another player’s as not applicable.

36

Why does nerfs happen?
Because of self found legit players that play the game as intended most of the time and don’t have an infinite ammount of time for GD farming every day?

I strongly doubt so.

Nerfs happen when someone uses Grimtools because she or he has an idea about something. And then they try it…and it doesn´t matter if they farm for the items, trade for them or GDStash them. Sooner or later, they will have it (as I said, I got 2 Ortus in the last 3 days).

And then they will see how the build performs.

37

I was just rambling on my previous post but this one capture what I feel about AlienEmoji’s post in a much more well-mannered way.

38

So are you saying that if something is easy to acquire it can be underpowered and if something is much harder to acquire, then it can be overpowered?

You are ok with that?

Because GD Stashing items that you can get ingame only lessens the time required to get it. It doesn’t make the build any less legit.

39

  1. Last time I checked Ravager and Mogdrogen were both part of the main campaign. And I could hardly say that any gear in this game “trivializes” those 2 guys on Ultimate. Also Lokarr and quite some other encounters can still be dangerous even with endgame sets equipped.

  2. So from your reply I cannot help but make a deduction that you’re an advocate for GDstash also. But please answer me one question then, why the transmute feature in FG? Isn’t the transmute feature meant to counter/improve rng to certain extent? Why do we need that in the first place if we have the almighty stash? Why bother to invest the resources and time to work on such on option? With gdstash that’s completely redundant.

40

Am I reading this correctly?

Isn’t that the whole point of arpg’s?

Isn’t legendary items usually a bit harder to aquire than common ones? (directly resulting in their increased power)

I mean what the hell are we even talking about at this point, I am really confused now.