[Feedback] On pierce strength

[Snazzblaster]

I still think its laughable to suggest capping a stat that was intentionally improved over the course of half a decade.

This is a valid point, which is why I would only be in support of a cap if it affected literally 0% of legitimate builds. I’d be opposed to any other cap

[Nery]

Pierce and aether damage types have so many things in common. Direct damage types, have few insanely strong builds and are carried by basically only one class combinations.

Pierce have edge in Crucible via insane cunning dump, fantasy greens and boosting the weak points - AoE and DoT with BoW and Blade Spirits bleeding damage .The thing is this method works only on builds with lots’ of cunning and greens. BS alone can’t save mediocre pierce concepts and even Belgo with full legendary set and 3x Blade Spirits without fantasy greens is pretty average end game build by modern day standards.

So culprits for OP builds are pierce affixes and cunning stats in particular. Blade Spirits performance are consequence of them. They won’t turn bad build into good, just will make strong pierce build shine brighter by covering it’s weakness. I’m fine if extra summon is changed to a gear, I won’t agree if it’s omitted completely.

[tqFan]

I agree with your arguments but personally haven’t seen better one in this thread:

• changing Cunning gain from affixes is not supported by Z because players may not be able to wear their gear after a patch

• changing %Pierce from Cunning mentioned by Z would affect all players and you’d not like it either

• taking away hard-earned 1 Blade Spirit- <insert arguments and even a Crucible test already given in the thread by various players>

• big brain / “hard-working devs” changes might not be possible at this point?

PS Personally I don’t even care about the 3rd BS because the 24/16 chase has become stale to me

[Maska322]

Isn’t it decided that BS will lose summon limit increase?
So it would be like pierce damage loses BS and rest of damage types keep the same number thanks to skill modifiers.
Or nerf Blades of Wrath.

[banana_peel]

changing Cunning gain from affixes is not supported by Z because players may not be able to wear their gear after a patch

So all the sudden we are afraid that someone will have to drink one potion and reditribute their stats.

While every other patch literally removes items (conduits) from the game completely. I can’t see this argument hold any water.

The solution is to prevent huge cunning dump by rebalancing several affixes and maybe constellation bonuses. Why does Cutthroat’s or of Amarasta’s Flurry need to have those high cunning values and not some other defensive bonus? The most dmg stacked builds will become slower and tankier.

You can compare the fastest builds and see that they all have huge cunning. It is exactly the main problem. If you don’t want to deal with the main problem, you won’t solve the issue, as simple as that.

[TheBigHam]

In light of recent input from the community, we’ll also be removing the rank 24+ summon limit increase on Blade Spirits. We will also add a summon limit increase modifier for the skill on a couple more exotic gear choices to compensate for the change, which would not benefit these builds.

Not sure this is a very elegant solution— seems like either you pepper in +1 summon to BS basically everywhere there’s already a BS skill mod in play, or a number of builds get caught in the crossfire here. I’d rather see 24/16 +1 summon stay but be conditional on having a shield/caster offhand, for example. Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but I think that would pretty much cover the other BS archetypes except fire BS conduit that wants to dual wield right now.

Edit: looks like Chillwhisper likes dual wield a little more than I remembered.

[x1x1x1x2]

There were 2 items I can remember that had +1 summon on BS before the nerf. Old conduit (that became the fire BS we know today) and Grasp of the Dead (whose BS mod changed to bonus damage). The nerf was originally in response to Chillwhisper getting 4 fat spirits and (I think) so that chillwhisper builds aren’t stuck on using a single amulet+offhand combo. If the +1 summon on 24/16 BS is removed I think just adding +1 back to the conduit (without removing conversion so fire can still use 3 spirits), +1 to either grasp of the dead (remove current damage bonus) or 4 piece chillwhisper and it would ensure that pierce won’t have 3 spirits while cold or fire won’t have 4 spirits.

But then again I think a 2 spirit setup on current pierce builds even at 24/16 need to be tested especially on melee, since @grey-maybe already tested 1 pt spirit on a caster and 12 seconds difference doesn’t seem to be much.

[TheBigHam]

I think the only major issue of note there is that such a change either nerfs Demonslayer set or forces it to play Grasp of the Dead (which it did originally), depending on whether +1 is applied to Chillwhisper or Grasp of the Dead. Right now, Demonslayer can play Mythical Contagion or Scarab Shell too. (+1 BS summon to Demonslayer is also a possible resolution here.)

On a related note, Scarab Shell bleed BS would suffer, but that might be alright(?) (see Bleeding Witch Hunter (with Crate kill video)). On the other hand, I think the most interesting part of extra BS summon is extra DoT stacking, and it’d be a shame to lose it unnecessarily.

[Ceno]

changing %Pierce from Cunning mentioned by Z would affect all players and you’d not like it either

Bold of you to assume I wouldn’t like this.

Because that’s the path I’d take if Cunning is that big of an issue. That or a slight reduction to its OA rewards.

So all the sudden we are afraid that someone will have to drink one potion and reditribute their stats.

While every other patch literally removes items (conduits) from the game completely.

One is a compounding effect that may totally annihilate a player’s ability to use a character they have, independent of level/gear completion, with stat bonuses on one item possibly preventing the use of another item that enables the use of a third item that…

The other is a forced change in playstyle, whilst the character can still ‘function’ at its stage in the game regardless, even if it is significantly (50%+) weaker.

The two are not comparable.

[FangedLion]

Based on the builds that have been forwarded my way, I would surmise that Blade Spirits play a larger part in the imbalance than you give them credit, so while I agree that the rank 24 summon limit increase may have to go, I’m not sure it requires compensation.

I’ve mentioned this before in the Reaping Arc discussion, but Pierce having OP fantasy greens has kind of always been its thing and I am reluctant to make drastic changes because someone stacks up 8 impossible items.

I am especially reluctant to make changes to attribute bonuses on gear that can impact someone’s ability to keep their gear on post-patch. I would sooner adjust the % Pierce damage gained from Cunning than cut existing Cunning bonuses, but even that I’m not certain is a necessary measure.

In v1.1.9.2, the Cutthroat prefix has its % Attack Speed bonus removed. In light of recent input from the community, we’ll also be removing the rank 24+ summon limit increase on Blade Spirits. We will also add a summon limit increase modifier for the skill on a couple more exotic gear choices to compensate for the change, which would not benefit these builds.

If this change does go through for 1.1.9.2, I’d like to say that the level 24 summon limit to Blade Spirit does add a good bit of build diversity. I’ve theorycrafted a couple builds which utilize Blade Spirit as a secondary damage source (I’ll probably end up posting a build guide for one or two of them in a couple days), and I think a change like the one mentioned would no longer make it worth it for these builds to exist.

The current issue that I see with what has been mentioned around Blade Spirit is when it’s focused around damage types that get %damage bonuses from cunning stacking. Pierce and Bleed Blade Spirit can get the best scaling Blade Spirit damage which is in its own league compared to Cold, Vitality, Fire, Acid, Aether, or Chaos Blade Spirit (of which would all need compensation support if Blade Spirit gets nerfed in the aforementioned way, which I’m not sure could happen for Fire (excluding Conduit versions), Acid, Aether, or Chaos because they do not use items which directly support Blade Spirit). It’s also not clear to me that such a nerf to Blade Spirit would even bring down their times all that significantly as Grey has pointed out:

it was the other way around.
and you even say it yourself that other BS builds, even Chillwhisper that has frostburn on it (!) doesnt come close. Quite obvious that the issue isnt them, but the damage type.
To support my point: the very same caster infil as in the op, but BS are 1 pointed. Still doing 4.07 and that was the only run i ever did. According to your logic, build would fail miserably w/o its main damage source, but no. Only 12 secs slower. I still kept them because of the BoW interaction though.

As for what to actually change, I’m not sure how you’d specifically single out Pierce and Bleed Blade Spirit (the latter of which, may even be justified doing such high numbers due to the downsides of being DoT) without just changing Cunning scaling or methods of obtaining Cunning. A very direct nerf like just putting -%Pierce damage on the skill (reminiscent of the Beronath, Reforged nerf) might be necessary if we don’t want to nerf Pierce Damage or Blade Spirit overall, but that change would probably feel very unsatisfying thematically. If Pierce builds’ Crucible times are an issue, then an overall nerf to Pierce damage makes the most sense to me, but these are just my thoughts.

[XandeRoot]

Well, if we go full-on pierce nerfing, why not nerf Seal of Blades too? Almost every single one pierce build uses two of them, while other pierce components just gather dust?

Decrease life leech to 3%, armor to 5%, damage from granted skill, remove pierce res - how about that, huh? And slightly buff Vicious Spikes and Blessed Whetstone while at it.

P.S. This is not sarcasm by the way.

[SKS]

Do you really want to introduce a world where hitting 2k Cunning (example as given above) is the necessity for every build?

Having looked at the builds attached to the topic, I made a conclusion for myself and suggested a way to solve the problem. I’m not an expert on game design, but I logically identified the source of the problem and suggested eliminating it. If you have a deeper and finer understanding of the game and its balance, suggest your own path. Regarding the removal of the third spirit at 24/16 - in my opinion, it is something like “you lift the weight with your right hand more than I do, so that we are equal, I will cut off a finger on your hand”, which is clearly unacceptable. Regarding the third spirit, I have such considerations - by 24/16, when adding a third spirit, reduce the damage for each individual spirit by 25% of the damage of 23/16, by 25/16 add 10% of the damage of 23/16, and by 26/16 add 15% more from 23/16 damage, gaining three spirits with a single spirit damage level of 23/16. For damage types other than native spirit damage, compensate for the difference with damage in the current game by adding it to the corresponding sets / items. This is a rough estimate and tests are needed. I understand that this is difficult, but for the players it will look exactly like a delicate balance, and not an unnecessary nerf.

[fordprefect]

Decrease life leech to 3%, armor to 5%, damage from granted skill, remove pierce res - how about that, huh?

That will hurt non-pierce builds more than pierce ones lol.

[Stupid_Dragon]

There was a proposal in one of the Discords that instead of removal of extra Blade Spirit at 24/16 you can make 3 Blade Spirits to be default and just reduce the damage scaling instead.

Thoughts?

Won’t help with BoW shotguns though, if that is truly a big factor.

[tqFan]

That will hurt non-pierce builds more than pierce ones lol.

Totally, I sometimes use it on non-pierce builds when I cannot get a good amount of leech anywhere else.
Not sure if other players do that too. For example this Physical Winter King’s Might: https://www.grimtools.com/calc/YNn83p9V
I cannot use Haunted Steel here because it would screw my Physical damage.

[XandeRoot]

Welp, non-pierce builds shouldn’t use it in the first place. Having life leech, armor and resistance on the same component? It’s so good that I’ve seen it being used on a plethora of non-pierce builds.

If I can’t get life leech from anywhere else, I use Solael pants.

People seem to abuse Ghoul + Bat on every second build it seems. You can often see complaints about “having a hard time converting Bat”. Well, how about trying to play without it altogether?

[tqFan]

If I can’t get life leech from anywhere else, I use Solael pants.

Sorry but I’d rather use my Barbaros

People seem to abuse Ghoul + Bat on every second build it seems. You can often see complaints about “having a hard time converting Bat”. Well, how about trying to play without it altogether?

Then you should make a thread about it I guess.

Welp, non-pierce builds shouldn’t use it in the first place. Having life leech, armor and resistance on the same component? It’s so good that I’ve seen it being used on a plethora of non-pierce builds.

I use it very rarely. Maybe it depends on builds one is playing.
Also great thinking - have a component be only used by 1 damage type
At least it’s a good rival to Seal of Might and you might need to think which of them to go for if building for defense.

[fordprefect]

If I can’t get life leech from anywhere else, I use Solael pants.

So you’re ignoring the builds that can use both seal of blades and solael pants? And people use seal of blades both for pierce resist and lifesteal? Here just made it recently >1.1.9.1<Melee Templar, wait it's Channeler! DW Fire EoR Templar. SR 85ish. You’re forgeting that the ‘‘Adcth’’ is the only way to survive except a few certain archetytpes. Ability to reach lifesteal is not a luxury, it’s a necessity.

People seem to abuse Ghoul + Bat on every second build it seems.

Abusing? lol. Ghoul is must not for lifesteal but for circuit breaker in most builds. And Bat provide sustain to some casters that have no/low weapon damage. The suggestions you’re making are affecting all builds, not just overpowered ones.

[nofika4u]

While Blade Spirits are very strong im not sure they are the biggest contributor to these crazy CR times, rather i think their strength gets amplified by pierce damage & high amounts of cunning.
I’d hate for them to get nerfed too much and hit other damage types. What bugs me about spirits tho is that you probably should add them to any Nightblade build, which is entirely possible given their itemization - no need for big compromises.
Will of the Blade for any pierce build yields an easy +4, Chillwhisper Crown to easily convert them to cold, Fateweavers Raiment which is already very strong now gives +2 etc…

TLDR; Pierce is a strong damage type. Blade Spirits are very strong but please don’t overnerf them. Cunning-dump breaks the game - %dmg for both pierce and bleed, free high OA

[Strannik]

Interesting idea … it could work.