Looks good but with all due respect still feels like average joe builds would be hurt most with the loss of the 3rd Sprit. Those banana peel builds with lose 10-15s in Crucible times (it’s a lot at those levels but still…) is all, as demonstrated by @grey-maybe above. Attack speed from Cutthroat can be easily made up for elsewhere. The op-ness of cunning dump will remain. Sky high dmg/oa/crit numbers will still allow top pierce builds to skip things like Ghoul.
Also, attack speed of all things? Seems like a redundant nerf. Attack speed is plenty accessible in pierce itemization and devos, isn’t it? I’d say CUNNING is the biggest culprit here. Also, conversions, I will risk defying the word of banana, I think there’s too many easy conversions for pierce which makes it op. The belt is just ridiculous. Also maybe worth mentioning - all those MI are trash mob drops.
Speaking on pierce, lets take a look at pierce glove. After the last nerf to Shadow’s Grasp, I still think that gloves still the superior option compared to other pierce gloves. Reason being it provide flat damage, cunning, attack and cast speed, and most importantly it provide big skill bonus for Blademaster, Infiltrator, and Tactician as all the skill bonus it give is used by those build.
Now lets see what the other candidates give: Viperfang Grips. It helps acid more than pierce which is fine, but the pierce option only benefit Witch Hunter (which the skill it give also convert pierce to acid). But still, I don’t think any legendary pierce gloves give benefits to pierce damage other than it smaller damage.
Quickdraw Gloves. Is another better candidates for pierce build that focus on Phantasmal Blades. Should be good on Infiltrator but not on any other else skill pointwise. The reduced cunning cost here is totally redundant for pierce build, and it support for forcewave seems out of place. The only synergetic weapon I can think of is Spite, but using that weapon will lock the granted skill. If using shield, the only shield option I can think of is the Watcher of Erulan, for the gun it would be Oathbearer. Another problem with this setup is, other than the Alexander’s Chausses and Mark of Kalastor nothing else support pierce forcewave.
Bloodrite Gauntlets and Bladedancer’s Gauntlet. Both offer similar skill with Bloodrite have more focus on Bleeding damage and high attack speed, and Bladedancer give cunning and physical resistance but miserable attack speed. Both have no flat pierce damage and the skill point it provides is inferior to both Shadow’s Grasp and Quickdraw Gloves imo. For Bloodrite Gauntlet, I may use it for Trickster or Warder before I found the Crimson Claws despite it lack pierce damage. For Bladedancer don’t think I will use it either in Blademaster, Trickster, or Warder.
i still like Grasps of Unchained might more for my Blademaster, because not having to take Scales for RR allows some really neat devotion combos
ofc that doesn’t go for Infiltrator anymore tho
Whenever something gets nerfed or proposed to be nerfed we always get the camp who says “Noooo it hurts my meme/niche/wacky/fun build”. Almost every nerf does that tho. It will always happen unless you have a game that only gives buffs and never nerfs, and Crate doesn’t do GD like that.
But the way I see it the entire reason why people play (or at least me. I can’t really speak for everyone) meme/niche/wacky/fun builds is literally just to meme or have fun by seeing that those unconventional stuff are possible. If 1 blade spirit is removed from nightblade that doesn’t mean I can’t convert my pierce into chaos or aether anymore.
Even nerfed, all those stuff will still be playable. It’s not like the goal of these meme builds are to compete with the cookie cutter strength-wise is it?
not really the point, imo, nor is that type of negligible investment loss
but when (multiple) balance changes are proposed, because of a handful of builds benefiting hugely from them, and “everything” else just benefits regularly, it seems silly/weird to make that the point of centre to balance around, even more when there are other (seemingly) avenues that could accomplish the same or better
losing 1/3 dmg from a 16pt investment, meme or not, is not exactly small, specially when we aren’t talking game destroying or record breaking/cruci meta timer builds on the rest outside the aforementioned handful
and while it might not exactly be a build killer to remove 1 spirit, it’s probably also not an insignificant loss at that point and gear investment required to get those +points to reach it
Sorry, but I’m not a beta tester and I don’t want to specifically infringe on my build. As for me, the situation is very similar to the case when, for example, you were offered to conclude a contract for the creation of a game with a budget of 3 million dollars, which will be paid to you within a year, and a month after the conclusion of the contract, they said: “We changed your mind, you will receive 2 million instead of three , but not within a year, but right now. " I mean, giving the players 3 BS, and then taking one, you act in a similar way. Balance edits are definitely needed, but they should be invisible to the average player. Have you played your game for a long time? In my opinion, the game lacks a seller of non-set legendary items at the last rift of the game, the ability to choose a crafting bonus from a blacksmith for crafting items and a completion bonus for relics (even if there is such an opportunity for rare components, but ordinary players will say thank you). This certainly does not apply to players who draw things. Put yourself in the shoes of a player who has been playing for a long time and think about your reaction when you were given “two candies”, and a minute later they took one. Players will feel the same way if they take one spirit in the hotfix.
I never really said anything about it being negligible. What’s the use of adjusting things if you’re expecting the effect to be negligible?
Then what would be that other avenue that would accomplish the same thing with regards to blade spirit? Nerf pierce damage in general? Nope. Zantai already made his view clear that he also intends to nerf vit (demonslayer) and cold (chillwhisper). I don’t necessarily agree with it (especially demonslayer) but I’m not the one who nerfs.
Now how about the effects of summon removal on meme builds?
*Fire and (pure )bleed? Already considered since Z already mentioned conduit and scarab shell as candidates for +1 summon mod. These are rhe kess memey ones tho cause bleed is naturally supported while fire has a specific item for it
*Aether? You only really get to 24/16 BS on fantasy setups anyway, should it really matter?
*Acid? Without resorting to using non acid rings and fantasy you can’t even get both perfect conversion and 3 spirits. A spirits nerf might even be a buff here lmao
Regarding BS 24/16 - I would like to share my ideas for infiltrators for softcore https://www.grimtools.com/calc/4VxrQLvN and hardcore https://www.grimtools.com/calc/RVvYz8X2. The builds have not been pumped yet, and given the current statements, I am unlikely to make them. I don’t paint things and play fair. I would like to draw your attention to the meaning of art. Of course I’m not a top builder and these are fun builds, but BS 24/16 doesn’t necessarily require fantastic stuff. For all the time that I have been playing in the GD, and this is from beta 24, many of my fan builds have been damaged and I would not want their number to increase at the end of the game, so I ask the game developers to make a competent and balanced decision.
Wouldn’t it be a much easier solution for this problem to change the anatomy of murder skill, now it gives +25% cunning at the softcap, what if it give something like 10% + 50OA? this also makes it more useful for builds not invested in cunning
Still has the same problem of toying with cunning rewards on gear; many builds (non-Pierce, mainly) one-point AoM and build around the small but noticeable bump to their ability to equip items. A reduction like this would leave such builds dead in the water.
It’s less severe to a point. The lesser severity is such as you can divest from other skills into AoM to get your build back to where it was. But that only goes as far as the softcap, after which if you need more to equip an item you were previously, you’re pretty much screwed.
Edit: Arguably this is a worse option than adjusting affix-based Cunning, as skill-based Cunning is present on many, many, MANY more builds. A good bit of my own builds would likely need adjustments, and while I’m in a position to make those adjustments with stat resets, players in the midgame may not be so lucky.
I propose to analyze the value of cunning for pirce builds, not limited to those indicated in this topic and only after that draw a conclusion whether this damage is imbalanced or it is not the damage itself, but the method of assembling the attached builds, and based on this, decide what exactly needs to be changed to bring the game back into balance.
good point, so what if it gave flat cunning instead of % cunning? a build not invested in cunning has like 400-500 so gets only 100 from 25%, so if it gave 100 it remains the same for those builds while nerfing the builds with huge cunning.
@gargabolo I think a mix of X% + Y (X, Y changing) would work too but might be too convoluted.
If I didn’t make mistake this one https://www.grimtools.com/calc/YVWeew0N
has +54% Cunning so from 2754 Cunning 1788 is the base which means it gets 430~1788*0.24 Cunning from 11/12 AoM.
Changing it to flat Cunning, for example if 11/12 AoM was giving 150, would result in
(100% + 54% - 24%) * 150 = 195 Cunning for this build.
Now if at 4/12 AoM was giving i.e. 80 Cunning instead of 10% Cunning it would still be good for normal builds I suppose?
The problem is it would give low level leveling characters too much Cunning
That build is hilariously hard to farm even among full double rares, since all affixes are the same on the armor pieces, you can’t even focus on getting the affixes without caring where they land, you have to get the same combo on each item every time.
What will happen to my Demonslayer and Chillwhisper builds that have 4 and 3 (respectively) Blade Spirits that are not even remotely overpowered? (At least Spirits have nothing to do with it if the builds are strong) Here are my links to builds:
the point is, for all those other, majority of builds, they are investing in blade spirit to bump their dmg 1/3, while not performing remotely like the handful causing this intended reduction. ie you’re punishing a vast amount of build because of a subset is benefiting. That’s not a negligible balance change, that’s quite significant, because it renders that investment completely pointless, regardless if it’s still “playable” - anything is playable after a nerf, but you don’t do the same investment, much less when it’s a core part of your build that’s gone
it’s been mentioned multiple times, reduce pierce gain from cunning ex after a certain amount, reduce cunning on cutthroat on 84-94 affix, modify BoW of proc
all changes that don’t hurt regular blade spirits builds, or leveling builds, and ofc also don’t affect demonslayer/chillwhisper - which we also don’t agree with is in same league as 3k cunning pierce builds
and among all those meme builds you’re forgetting there is still regular pierce and cold blade spirits builds, that will get punished for this, making it pointless to invest 24+ and will just go back down to 1pt, because there is no reason to invest more when your dmg gets that much lowered, so yes the summon removal will affect those, and will basically make it worthless to try and build around pets “unless you’re bleed and fire” or one of the 2 other pure dedicated spirit builds/demonslayer/chillwhisper - but any other regular build will have 0 reason to build as pseudo pet build beyond 1pt bladespirit when that much of your investment dmg is gone - despite all those builds having far from the same performance as the handful blazing 3.30
yes it it should, because something works, is possible within the game, shouldn’t be punished because a minority builds perform extraordinary, specially not when it’s not sole reason for them performing that way.
removing 1 spirit, and “only” allowing it on fire/bleed, will “kill”(exaggeration) build diversity and put spirits back to the time just being a 1pointer on a nightblade, and that’s just silly imo, and not a negligible re-balancing consequence in attempting to reel in a handful of builds - and you’re acting like it is, “just because affecting meme/non-meta builds”, they are still existing build opportunities and add diversity
Geez. Why not quote the entire paragraph? You’re just babbling stuff that has already been said multiple times. Zantai intends to nerf both Chillwhisper and Demonslayer too. Personally I’d add one summon to chillwhisper and then buff PB mods on demonslayer to compensate. But again, I’m not zantai.
Lemme ask you a question: Should all nightblades put that significant investment on blade spirit? Personal answer of mine, No. Because if you’re saying yes, then I might as well use that to justify putting max rune of haggarad on all my inquisitors and then I should demand for zantai to revert all those nerfs because unsupported runes is kinda shit. If every build maxes a skill that they don’t even build around and then it becomes a major, if not the main source of damage for a build, then that’s literally what an OP skill is.
Again, quote the entire paragraph cause it’s relevant. You look like one of those fake news outlets who quote an excerpt of a guy’s statement and distorts the meaning. Lemme do it for you:
That whole statement was about aether fantasy setups and you twisted it to make it seem like I referred to all meme builds lmao. Skill bonuses affixes are the hardest affix to farm in the entire game due to how many variants of them there are. Even with the nerf, non fantasy aether infiltrator will be the same.
because it’s not necessary to what i’m addressing or what i/you said
aye, i’m repeating it because you seemed to have missed it, hence “what avenaues are available to balance” - but that decision is Z’s to make, you just “missed” it or dismissed it as an option that wasn’t there and only saw to remove spirit because that’s already been decided or something/whatever. the point was it wasn’t/others had already been pointed out
it’s not whether or not you “should” in order to make some cruci-meta build, but that you should be allowed to if you wish, because on those builds no it’s not an op skill but something you can sacrifice dmg one place and then partially add “back” in another. Removing spirit then removes that option and shoves you back into only adding your dmg from 1 place and play all nightblades the same/not invest in spirit on anything but a subset of specific builds, because there is no tradeoff anymore
no it wasn’t for what i wanted to say, as it makes no difference and wasn’t the centre point, which you failed to grasp for the second time
you did overall refer to “all meme builds” multiple times, heck you made a full list of how awful they were and how little the change would matter for each of them/them all
hence taking that snippet out of context does nothing to twist what you said, remotely, while serving decently to briefly center around my point, that meme or not, “unoptimized” pierce/cold/non-cruci-meta build or not, that option and build should be allowed to exist, despite a handful legitimately benefiting extraordinarily
and i’m not arguing you as if you were zantai/had any influence or power in the decision to nerf, i’m voicing my point because you seem to not “get it” and dismiss it as trivial balancing, “because meme builds”/“still playable” etc which frankly ruffles my feathers
You’re not the one who decides on what I meant by what I said. All of what I said past my original comment is in response to you cutting off my statements. I did not miss anything. The general pierce nerf is irrelevant to cold and vit builds and to my original statement in general. Lemme just lay down all the points I want to say just so it becomes clear:
Meme builds will be collateral damage. No matter what nerf it is, no matter what game it is. With the exception of games that never nerfs.
Because of the above, then people who play those weird builds (it includes myself ffs) have to bear with it, since balancing will never be centered around underoptimizations. If a game balances around unoptimized stuff, then it’ll be one misleading thing onto another and the game will be a mess.
Unoptimized builds will still exist. Meme builds who rely on fringe conversions will still exist unless a nerf is specifically done to remove them (mostly the conversions). On blade spirit specifically, people are still allowed to pour all their points on it. I imagine the backlash if Crate instead straight up lowers spirit damage by 33% while keeping 3 spirits will be much less.
The goal of meme builds aren’t generally to compete with the straighforward, cookie cutter builds but just to show the concept works and to have fun with it.
5*. Fun is very subjective and hard to quantify, while the playerbase of these meme builds aren’t exactly nearly as much as the cookie cutter playerbase. Balance changes also take account of how many are impacted.
In fairness to Crate’s part, they generally give incentives to meme build players like what Z said about him considering adding the blade spirit summon again on conduit for fire builds and on scarab shell for bleed builds.
This doesn’t mean I support all of what Zantai said about blade spirit nerfs. Personally, I think 3rd summon should be removed at 24/16, damage values for spirits itself should be increased at those ranks, then aside from fire conduit and scarab shell, 3rd spirit should be added to chillwhisper full set and some PB buffs on demonslayer to compensate. This is in addition to the suggested general pierce nerfs on affixes which mostly only affects fantasy anyway.
If you’re pissed off on what I said then I don’t really care. It’s the reality of this game and in other games too. Be grateful zantai still thinks about fire and bleed spirits. Meanwhile I couldn’t play full stall talonflame anymore because gamefreak nerfed the hell out of its ability.
On point number 5, it might spark a debate on why the “cruci crowd” (extremely misleading nowadays since I think I’m the only one in the group who still plays cruci exclusively lmao) gets their balancing centered around them while the memers don’t then my personal opinion on that is still because of optimization issues, but that’s for another thread.
