[Feedback] Warborn Cadence is still bad (examples with videos inside)

Grim Dawn Ideas and Feedback
1

So last time my thread got derailed by people who have started giving me unsolicited (and bad) build advice instead of actually discussing Warborn Cadence. Feedback thread was closed however whopping 10% crit damage mod was granted to the Warborn set in the latest patch.

Well I am back for some more.

Couple of simple examples that illustrate how deep is a hole that Physical Cadence is actually in:

Exhibit 1: Warborn Cadence Warlord

https://www.grimtools.com/calc/YZe4vQdV

Around ~3000% to Physical damage with Ascension up (that includes bonus from Cunning), two physical tier three devotions, wearing a Cadence dedicated set on a class combo dedicated to physical damage. 63% Critical Damage (something only Warlords can do), 40 flat RR from fully leveled Break Morale.

7:28 Crucible Gladiator 150-170 run with “Resistant” mutator (minus physical resist to monsters).

Exhibit 2: Warborn Righteous Fervor Dervish

https://www.grimtools.com/calc/D2p7vYyN

~2600% to Physical damage with Ascension up (including Cunning bonus), same devotion map, wearing same set that however gives only general stats and +1 to Oathkeeper skills to this build and same items, except amulet, medal, belt and boots. It is a gimmicky spec since Nightblade doesn’t really support physical damage outside of Grasp of Unchained Might gloves mod and increased Cunning (and Belgothian’s Shears wps). 76% critical damage however, but just 18 flat RR from Ring of Steel mod.

On top of that, unlike Warborn Cadence Warlord this Dervish has to interrupt its attacks with Ring of Steel spam for RR every three seconds and Amarasta’s Blade Burst for Lethal Assault charge every 4 seconds.

7:32 run with Armored mutator (plus physical res to monsters). Version with a green belt can easily go under 7 minutes. Dervish also felt safer than Warlord between those two specs.

So two identical builds, one super synergetic one wearing a dedicated set using specialized Physical auto-attack and one is a gimmicky one wearing identical set of items that gives nothing to it except stats, perform at the same level.

So can we please have Warborn Cadence properly looked into now?

Bonus videos

Warborn Death Knight vs. Crucible 150-170: 7:07 run. GT: https://www.grimtools.com/calc/lNkOrovN

Warborn Dervish with a green belt vs. Crucible 150-170: 6:54 run. GT: https://www.grimtools.com/calc/YZe4q1EV

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So wild idea. My suggestion has always been to add more targets to fighting form and remove reaver claw target mods. How about trying out reaver claw on offhand for warborn? Armor piercing isn’t a big deal cause cadence hits with main hand only, and wps isn’t essential for damage except for cadence resets.

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Show the DK again cause that’s the class outside of WL with biggest potential. It’s not looking good. Witchblade it’s not faster but lot more fragile.

Physical damage it’s not in good state and that’s exhibited fully by Soldiers’ poster boy - Cadence. Cadence isn’t impressive for DW but it’s even worse for 2H or S&B and unlike RF don’t have retaliation added to attack.

So should be improved. And don’t forget Warborn Cadence took collateral damage because of EoR version. So I think this should be buff in some of the next patches in the general tendencies to buff more than Nerf!

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@mad_lee
Well this is some solid testing sir.

I feel physical damage is wonky somehow. I don’t know how armor really affects the damage reduction and there are all kind of theories floating around. In addition, no matter how much we (as a group) tested physical, we all ended up with different results.

Having said that is this an issues with:
Cadence as a skill
The Warborn Set
Is the damage converted on the dervish not subjected to armor reduction in the same way
How does armor really work

I don’t think I could even give a good suggestion unless we know for sure what’s the cause of such close times when one build is superior on paper to the other.

I think the biggest argument against any changes by Z will be based on your times and what he feels the set should be doing.

Regardless you have my vote to make cadence more interesting/better at the least.

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@mad_lee, did you test warborn blade master as well? I mean maybe NB WPS make such impact on clear time.

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Well this time I am trying to make it not about how fast it is, but more about how bad it is to the point where it’s almost outperformed by a gimmicky build in the same gear but with worse (almost) everything.

That would be a wrong test to make here. Cadence is known for interacting weirdly with wps, besides Nightblade does not have any RR so what you are suggesting is basically comparing physical Cadence to the worse version of physical Cadence.

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But Dervish in your sense should be worse physical Cadence build with NB having no default physical RR or maybe I miss something.

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Yes, you are missing the fact that Dervish does not have Cadence (since it’s a Soldier skill) and does have similiar RR as Warlord (since both use Oathkeeper).

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That’s a great point, thanks a lot, mate <3

I am adding bonus videos of Warlord Death Knight and Warborn Dervish but with a green belt.

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11

Ok, what about damage statistic (including numbers for different attacks) in Crucible for both builds? Any data for analysis?

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What are you talking about? Are you expecting me to analyse game code somehow and make excel tables?

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Perhaps I am totally wrong here but is it possible that Dervish performs so “good” here because Dervish WPS have the possibility to hit with both weapons at the same time? Or is this wrong data swirling through my sleepy head?

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I’m failing to see myself how Physical Dervish is “gimmicky”, specially when we have stuff like Targo Dervish working.

If anything, this thread proved that physical DW Dervish actually works and it’s not “gimmicky” in the slightest. Cunning dump, an healing skill, wps specifically made for DW (specially when one of them is physical based), you don’t need to use an item to DW, thus free an item slot, and an extra invincible pet to proc devotions. Soldier literally only has two wps that are weaker for DW than the nightblade ones and more flat RR.

And it’s not the first time we have seen a class combo that is not entirely supported by a set work just as good as or even better than the intended class combo. Like Morgoneth working better on Infiltrator than on Reaper.

Also yes, all Nightblade WPS hit with both hands.

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I mean GD tool showing DPS and other build damage statistic during the fight. As a simple test you can check this data on dummies.

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If I remember correct at least some NB WPS work with both hands, i.e. with both weapons.

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I can break it down for you:

  • Warborn set does not support Physical Dervish at all (so your comparison with Targo is irrelevant here, Targo specifically supports Physical Dervish)
  • Nightblade mastery has almost no support for physical damage
  • You have to interrupt your main attack not with one but with two skills (Pierce Nightblades almost never use ABB and other Nightblades don’t need to spam RoS every three seconds for RR)

Care to make a relevant comment now?

There is a video of Warborn Death Knight in the op that has 87% WPS pool compared to Dervishes 82%. All WPS hit with both hands.

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I wonder if NB WPS pool with dual weapons can compensate lack of RR in NB mastery. If so, it would be a good point to curious game mechanic aspect.

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How is this the thing that you have dissected for yourself from this thread? How are you conviniently ignoring the topic and the point of the thread which is, I am reminding you, “Physical Cadence is bad”? Please, stay on topic, you are derailing my thread, making false arguments for something that is not even being discussed here.

Same as on Warlord. You have clearly missed the part where Warlord had 3000% Physical damage after Cunning and Dervish had just 2600%.

I didn’t even take transmuter on PB, lol. And it’s mostly irrelevant for a melee build anyway.

Death Knight’s and Warlord’s WPS hit with both hands too. Death Knight even has more WPS (all converted too).

So you are going to conviniently not mention that Dervish uses Serenity relic, while Warlord uses physical powerhouse that is Doom relic? And all while “free item slot” in case of Dervish is taken by sub-par medal Mark of the Dreadblade that has 70% to physical, and Warborn DW Soldiers use super strong Direwolf?

Which is not needed. Both builds proc Assassin’s Mark with main attack and Azrakaa’s Sands can be proced either by Blade Spirits or Guardians of Empyrion with equal efficiency.

Again, compare Nightblade’s WPS to Death Knight ones: Markovian Advantage =/= Belgothian Shears, Necrotic Edge >> Whirling Death (most important one since it’s aoe), Reaping Strike << Execution (except Reaping Strike heals).

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20

Alright but what’s the Cronley times?

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21

Nightblade it’s cool class but it’s awkward that can perform at same level as Soldier. I mean Soldier up until FG was mandatory for any physical build, have monster flat RR skill supported by set, set boost to the class and to the main auto attack.

Nightblade have no Warborn support and WPS are good but not boosted by mods and not even that suited for physical damage. Furthermore RF is not properly supported for non retal or acid setups, so you should lack both in DPS and skills points. Yet Dervish it’s not worse than powerhouse physical classes like Warlord and DK. So why not boost the traditional physical setup?

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